RFD: create new list and forum 'wine-newbies'

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:52 am

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.

Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:55 am

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.

Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

I can help, but I don't have as much free time this semester. Quick
advice isn't as hard, but testing apps for recipes, etc. isn't as
likely to happen.

Mark Knecht · Post by **Mark Knecht** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:04 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.

Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

Dan,
I'm willing to help although being experienced at my level may not
be all that helpful. Who knows until I try, right?

I'm sure I'd learn more by helping more.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split. It seems a shame that
this forum link gets added which then causes more traffic and that
traffic drives away our more experienced users. As an alternative,
decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to pay attention
to the forums. The original wine-users list is unchanged and the
forums succeed or fail on their own merits.

Count me in if I can help out.

Cheers,
Mark

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:08 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Mark Knecht <[email protected]> wrote:

I'm willing to help although being experienced at my level may not
be all that helpful. Who knows until I try, right?

I'm sure you'll be great.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split. It seems a shame that
this forum link gets added which then causes more traffic and that
traffic drives away our more experienced users. As an alternative,
decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to pay attention
to the forums.

That won't fly, I'm afraid. I can't really deal with forums, I much
prefer email, and I think other oldtimers probably feel the same way.

I think having both wine-newbies and wine-users,
both with forum/list gateways, might work out nicely.
- Dan

Zachary Goldberg · Post by **Zachary Goldberg** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:18 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.
Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

I agree with Dan that I don't think that splitting the users list is
worthwhile. It simply fragments for the sake of reducing traffic. We
_FINALLY_ have some communication between the Wine community and our
users looking for help and hopefully they are getting they help they
need and we're learning how to avoid common trouble spots and fix them
(And I do think this is happening).

-Z

Mark Knecht · Post by **Mark Knecht** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:19 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Mark Knecht <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm willing to help although being experienced at my level may not
be all that helpful. Who knows until I try, right?
I'm sure you'll be great.

With your help.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split. It seems a shame that
this forum link gets added which then causes more traffic and that
traffic drives away our more experienced users. As an alternative,
decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to pay attention
to the forums.
That won't fly, I'm afraid. I can't really deal with forums, I much
prefer email, and I think other oldtimers probably feel the same way.

I don't like forums much either but they do have the advantage of
being more linear and (I think) searchable. If we can get more info
into the forums so that folks search out their solutions instead of
just posting quickly hoping for a quick answer then over the long run
that will be good. 8 or 9 years here playing with Linux at one level
or another and without Google searching for old email threads I'd be
dead I think. With it I manage to make Linux about 85% of my computer
usage. (Although falling lately as I am stock trading day in and day
out on a Windows app that won't run under Wine yet.)

I think having both wine-newbies and wine-users,
both with forum/list gateways, might work out nicely.

Unless newbies sign up for both forums, end up on both lists asking
the same questions. Then I think little will be accomplished. If we
can get newbie questions confined to the newbie forum then it might
well work.

Cheers,
Mark

- Dan

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:40 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Mark Knecht <[email protected]> wrote:

without Google searching for old email threads I'd be dead I think.

Me, too!

I think having both wine-newbies and wine-users,
both with forum/list gateways, might work out nicely.
Unless newbies sign up for both forums, end up on both lists asking
the same questions. Then I think little will be accomplished. If we
can get newbie questions confined to the newbie forum then it might
well work.

My gut feeling is that users will self-segment, and most
beginner questions will end up in wine-newbies. If that
doesn't happen, we can go back to just one group.

L. Rahyen · Post by **L. Rahyen** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:45 pm

On Friday March 21 2008 17:02:33 Mark Knecht wrote:

As an alternative, decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to
pay attention to the forums.

Main point of creating ML <-> forum link was to not fragment user base and
allow people who don't like forums (and want to use ML) but can (and want)
to help to the users. Personally I don't like forums very much (however I can
use them if necessary but without ML <-> forum link it would simply be
impractical for me to read so much messages per day) but I understand why
some other people like them.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split.

+1. And I want to say that I don't see any problem actually. This list exist
for helping users. For advanced users who's questions aren't suitable for
wine-users we already have separate list - wine-devel. So for people who want
to ask/answer advanced questions wine-devel is best place.

James Hawkins · Post by **James Hawkins** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:59 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43 AM, L. Rahyen <[email protected]> wrote:

On Friday March 21 2008 17:02:33 Mark Knecht wrote:
As an alternative, decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to
pay attention to the forums.
Main point of creating ML <-> forum link was to not fragment user base and
allow people who don't like forums (and want to use ML) but can (and want)
to help to the users. Personally I don't like forums very much (however I can
use them if necessary but without ML <-> forum link it would simply be
impractical for me to read so much messages per day) but I understand why
some other people like them.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split.
+1. And I want to say that I don't see any problem actually. This list exist
for helping users. For advanced users who's questions aren't suitable for
wine-users we already have separate list - wine-devel. So for people who want
to ask/answer advanced questions wine-devel is best place.

+1. Anyone claiming that wine-users hasn't been filled with newbie
questions before the linkup hasn't been on the list for very long. In
the wine community, you either know how to use Wine or you don't.
Those that don't know ask for help on wine-users. Those that do know
how to use Wine submit bug reports for non-working apps. Adding
another list completely defeats the purpose of linking the ML and
forum. We added the link to reduce fragmentation, and that has
happened. We're reaching out to a user base that formerly had no
connection with experienced wine users. For those considering adding
a newbies list, keep in mind that the few have shouted above the many,
and some of those shouters have said they aren't willing to help the
newbies in any circumstance. We've provided an alternative solution
for those that can't handle dealing with new users. They can, and
some have, removed themselves from wine-users. They can also easily
filter the wine-forum messages. With that being said, please
reconsider adding yet another ML.

--
James Hawkins

Mark Knecht · Post by **Mark Knecht** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:01 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:43 AM, L. Rahyen <[email protected]> wrote:

On Friday March 21 2008 17:02:33 Mark Knecht wrote:
As an alternative, decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to
pay attention to the forums.
Main point of creating ML <-> forum link was to not fragment user base and
allow people who don't like forums (and want to use ML) but can (and want)
to help to the users. Personally I don't like forums very much (however I can
use them if necessary but without ML <-> forum link it would simply be
impractical for me to read so much messages per day) but I understand why
some other people like them.

Personally I'd prefer the list not be split.
+1. And I want to say that I don't see any problem actually. This list exist
for helping users. For advanced users who's questions aren't suitable for
wine-users we already have separate list - wine-devel. So for people who want
to ask/answer advanced questions wine-devel is best place.

Yep. It's often painful getting new things started. I think a year
from now having the forum as an easily searchable repository of this
information will likely be better than using Google to find a single
on-topic response to some problem. I can imagine I search with Google,
find an email that looks interesting, see the topic and then go to the
forum to read the whole thread. I likely won't start in the forum but
I could end up there to read more context info.

Cheers,
Mark

felix · Post by **felix** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:26 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 01:18:15PM -0400, Zachary Goldberg wrote:

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:
It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.
Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

I agree with Dan that I don't think that splitting the users list is
worthwhile. It simply fragments for the sake of reducing traffic. We
_FINALLY_ have some communication between the Wine community and our
users looking for help and hopefully they are getting they help they
need and we're learning how to avoid common trouble spots and fix them
(And I do think this is happening).

I think the problem right now is that there is a bad signal to noise
ratio. I haven't really the time to respond to a lot of the questions
that are coming through at the moment, but I remain hopeful that over
time things will improve. I'm not sure that adding wine-newbies is going
to solve everything. If it is added, I will definitely join it too. I
still like to help out when possible, and that would only happen if I'm
on all the lists

Right now, there is definitely a problem in that there are so many
newbie questions that any advanced use/tweaks of wine to deal with
specific cases are being drowned out. I spotted that someone mentioned
that we have wine-devel for advanced questions. But there are a lot of
cases where someone just trying to get an application to work which
might need tweaks, registry changes, help with understanding what's
coming off the debug channels so that they can put together a bug report
for the developers. That IMHO shouldn't be going to the wine-devel list,
but is an advanced use case. With the huge amount of questions appearing
in wine-users, any advance use info will quickly be swamped and
disappear beneath the waves.

If wine-newbies is added, it may be worth making wine-users read-only
from the forum side. Otherwise you'll still likely get people thinking
that's the correct location to post any basic question about wine, since
they are a user of wine after all.

--
Darragh

"Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Ove Kaaven · Post by **Ove Kaaven** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:20 pm

Dan Kegel skrev:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

Well, I don't see why that would be the case. How much experience could
you possibly need to tell users that they need to doubleclick .exe files
to run them, which seems to be a majority of the issues around here?
That's the kind of thing even beginners might be able to help each other
with...

And once the users have learned how to doubleclick and stuff, they can
then leave wine-newbies and seek further enlightenment from the wise
guys at wine-users. Perhaps that might work...?

DARKGuy . · Post by **DARKGuy .** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:25 pm

And then we have people who think their question is too advanced for
wine-beginners and posts in wine-users. Then there are others who will
think wine-beginners is too n00b and will post their n00b questions in
wine-users, then we'll get a lot of emails of people who go like "Hey
dude, this is not the place to post, please make your thread -here- or
-there-".

On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Ove Kaaven <[email protected]> wrote:

Dan Kegel skrev:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.
Well, I don't see why that would be the case. How much experience could
you possibly need to tell users that they need to doubleclick .exe files
to run them, which seems to be a majority of the issues around here?
That's the kind of thing even beginners might be able to help each other
with...

And once the users have learned how to doubleclick and stuff, they can
then leave wine-newbies and seek further enlightenment from the wise
guys at wine-users. Perhaps that might work...?

Greg Harris · Post by **Greg Harris** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:28 pm

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:18:15 -0400
"Zachary Goldberg" <[email protected]> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:
It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.
Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

I agree with Dan that I don't think that splitting the users list is
worthwhile. It simply fragments for the sake of reducing traffic. We
_FINALLY_ have some communication between the Wine community and our
users looking for help and hopefully they are getting they help they
need and we're learning how to avoid common trouble spots and fix them
(And I do think this is happening).

-Z

I'm sympathetic with the goal of avoiding fragmentation, even if I
find much of the new traffic somewhat annoying. If there is to be a
separation, though, I'm not sure newbie-ness is necessarily the best
metric.

Where I find myself hitting the delete key quickly is where the subject
line clearly relates to this or that game. Breaking the list (and forum
link) into a "wine-games" and "wine-everything-else" might be a better
way both to target questioners with helpful experts and to reduce
annoyance all around.

Of course, I'm not expert enough to offer much help to either category,
so take my perspective with a large grain of salt.

Greg Harris

vitamin · Post by **vitamin** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:57 pm

Dan, you contradict yourself. First you want a forum so bad that everyone starts running like a chicken with cut-off head to make that happen. Now you saying it's bad?!

So far I've seen only two-four snubs who think they are supper-duper advanced users who don't want to talk about anything but "advanced" topics. For me those people are welcome to leave and open their own forum, mailing list whatever. Oh, and if they thought that wine-users ML was "advanced" - THEY ARE WRONG. You just had no one to point out how wrong most of the answers were.

If anyone thinks they are too smart to answer dumb questions - don't answer them. Mark the thread as read and move on. If that's even too much - then don't pretend being a part of the community - leave and no one will even notice.

This topics have to end.
1. We are not going to separate forum from ML (in few month there won't be any need - as there are would be much more forum users then active ML posters).
2. No one will be creating special area for advanced users. If you are so advance - be a developer or evaluate your knowledge about Wine.
3. Noise to signal ratio - BS count the number of all posts 2 months ago and now. I'll tell you that in an entire month there was max 10 replys worth reading.

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:21 pm

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 6:57 PM, vitamin <[email protected]> wrote:

Dan, you contradict yourself. First you want a forum so bad that
everyone starts running like a chicken with cut-off head to make
that happen. Now you saying it's bad?!

Nope, I must have been misread. I was simply laying out the case
for and against a newbies forum.

1. We are not going to separate forum from ML

Right, but that's not what this thread was about.

2. No one will be creating special area for advanced users.

That's what this thread is about - and I don't think the issue is settled.

3. Noise to signal ratio - BS count the number of all posts 2 months
ago and now. ... in an entire month there was max 10 replys worth reading.

Traffic does seem to be up 5x or so. But looking at the archives, it seems
not as sparse as you've made it out to be. So I think you're wrong on
that count.
- Dan

James McKenzie · Post by **James McKenzie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:36 pm

Dan Kegel wrote:

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand. I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.

Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

Dan:

I'm willing to help with the newbie problems if they are new and the
program is publically accessible.

James McKenzie

oiaohm · Post by **oiaohm** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:57 pm

I will be kinda blunt. Number 1 wine-users was always ment for all wine users. Now wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.

If there is truly a need to change the mail list most neutral change is not shoving the inexperienced into there own group with a bad name. But to create a wine-advanced or something like that for the more advanced users. We all ready have a developers mailing list. So there better be good grounds.

I have to live with all coming in the winehq IRC channel. The newbies being the the wine-user group would have happened soon or latter. At first winehq on freenode was very newbie free until using irc became simpler. Since these days its just point and click we get mountains of them.

Only reason these so called newbies have not been in the mail list is lack of skill to find it and join. Also people like me are not in the mailing list because my mail box is already too full.

Note most people will not post lots of questions in channels with the word newbie in it either.

So your closed shop mailing list has ended. Just grow up and live with it.

Paul Johnson · Post by **Paul Johnson** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:21 pm

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Hash: SHA1

On Sunday 23 March 2008 08:57:46 pm oiaohm wrote:

I will be kinda blunt. Number 1 wine-users was always ment for all wine
users. Now wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.

If we must go with the split, instead of creating a new list and forum, just
unlink the list and the forum. The newbies will gravitate to the forum and
the experienced users to the more traditional mailing list environment
naturally.

Ideally, though, there's no such need for the split, and the forum should just
be unlinked until the forum rules and the forum interface to the mailing list
are fixed to comply with standard quoting, threading and traditional user
expectations (after all, the idea being to bring newbies up to being real
users, not drag everyone else down to newbie level). This is doable, however
the forum to list code has proven too immature for production use and really
should be pulled from production use until it's fixed.

Only reason these so called newbies have not been in the mail list is lack
of skill to find it and join. Also people like me are not in the mailing
list because my mail box is already too full.

If there were no forum, the mailing list would be more obvious to find even
with the present wiki layout.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:06 am

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 8:57 PM, oiaohm <[email protected]> wrote:

wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.

Context is important. I think we could phrase the group description
well enough so nobody takes the name as an insult. For instance:

wine-newbies: For people new to life without Windows, or those who
want to help them.
wine-users: For people who have already run an app or two successfully in Wine
wine-devel: For programmers/developers who are contributing code,
documentation, or bug reports to Wine

- Dan

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:12 am

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 8:35 PM, James McKenzie
<[email protected]> wrote:

I'm willing to help with the newbie problems if they are new and the
program is publically accessible.

I think that puts us over the edge. We now have Austin, Mark, and myself
willing to monitor the new group and help out.
And as Ove pointed out, if there are enough people in
the group, they'll be able to help each other whatever
their skill level.

I think that a wine-newbies group right next to wine-users would
naturally arrange for most of the "I just left Windows and I
need help adjusting to the whole linux thing AND wine"
questions to be separated from the "I love wine but
this one app has this problem" questions. And, since
the two forums would be right next to each other, the
barrier to jumping between them should be low.
- Dan

James Hawkins · Post by **James Hawkins** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:23 am

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 12:06 AM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 8:57 PM, oiaohm <[email protected]> wrote:
wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.
Context is important. I think we could phrase the group description
well enough so nobody takes the name as an insult. For instance:

wine-newbies: For people new to life without Windows, or those who
want to help them.
wine-users: For people who have already run an app or two successfully in Wine

Besides filing bug reports for apps that don't work, what types of
messages would be in wine-users under this scheme? Wine is relatively
simple enough that, once you figure out how to run it, there's not
much left to figure out for the average user. If we do create this
new mailing list, which I seriously hope we don't, you're going to
find the traffic in wine-users drop to close to nil, and the ones that
do post to wine-users will just be told to file a bug report. The
point is that wine-users always was the place for newbies to post, we
just never had as many newbies as we're getting these days. The
problem is the frustration of those in the Wine community towards
newbies; a wine-newbies ML is the wrong solution.

--
James Hawkins

Dan Kegel · Post by **Dan Kegel** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:32 am

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:23 PM, James Hawkins <[email protected]> wrote:

Besides filing bug reports for apps that don't work, what types of
messages would be in wine-users under this scheme?

Game tweaks, for instance, and what hoops one has to
jump through for apps that have broken installers, etc.
It'll be enough to keep a list busy, I think!

the problem is the frustration of those in the Wine community
towards newbies

Aye, that's part of it. But I really do suspect that the traffic is
high enough to split already, this isn't just to create a safe space
for beginners...
- Dan

oiaohm · Post by **oiaohm** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:53 am

Been thinking. Something critical in the forum is missing. Yes we have a welcome message. Do we have a message point users to where they can get there assistance straight up no. Mailing lists always had faq's to keep traffic down. Busy ones normally did monthly updates to keep posts down. In Welcome message is too hidden. Read the Guide I can tell you now 90 percent will not be. http://wiki.winehq.org/ForumGuidelines << contents in a direct stick message at top. Far more effective. Experience from other forums don't expect people to read rules of forum on second link in. Even a virtual post at top is more effective.

Modern day user problem see forum click threw to there don't read else where.

It all about getting use to it. What you have to wake up is that so call newbies are getting more skilled. About 10 years ago they would not find irc. Instead more often find newsgroups. Since users were using newsgroups more.

Its just a progression. Even if you unlink the forum/mailing list all you are doing is buying time. Sooner or latter mailing lists will become popular again. All it would really take is a few beginner books published showing number one how to use mailing lists number two saying that they are the best way to get answers. Even worse is if email clients start making using mail lists very point and click.

Other thing documentation of wine needs a lot of work. You want rid of them lets make it simple. Good documentation reduces it. Good redirection to good documentation also reduce it. But it will be heavy than it was before that is just expectable.

No point thinking about splitting until you have attempted to reduce. Since one day you will need good traffic reduce method might as well sort them out now. Still the same comment get use it. Basically meaning find the problems and fix them.

David Shaw · Post by **David Shaw** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:22 am

James Hawkins wrote:

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 12:06 AM, Dan Kegel <[email protected]> wrote:

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 8:57 PM, oiaohm <[email protected]> wrote:
wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.
Context is important. I think we could phrase the group description
well enough so nobody takes the name as an insult. For instance:

wine-newbies: For people new to life without Windows, or those who
want to help them.
wine-users: For people who have already run an app or two successfully in Wine

Besides filing bug reports for apps that don't work, what types of
messages would be in wine-users under this scheme? Wine is relatively
simple enough that, once you figure out how to run it, there's not
much left to figure out for the average user. If we do create this
new mailing list, which I seriously hope we don't, you're going to
find the traffic in wine-users drop to close to nil, and the ones that
do post to wine-users will just be told to file a bug report. The
point is that wine-users always was the place for newbies to post, we
just never had as many newbies as we're getting these days. The
problem is the frustration of those in the Wine community towards
newbies; a wine-newbies ML is the wrong solution.

I agree with this position. Fragmenting the lists is a *very* bad idea
- especially as it seems to be being proposed solely for the benefit of
the minority who find newbies so objectionable.

David Shaw