AppDB, and the test submission section

[Xerxes]

When I tried to submit test data for a game (Just Cause 3 https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager. ... &iId=36414) I wanted to give it a gold rating for it being able to run just as good or better than on windows, so I wanted to put the workarounds I used in the workarounds section and it gave me this error.

The following errors were found:
Please describe the workaround(s) used for this application.
Workarounds should not have been used if there were no problems that are not also present in Windows.

So for now I have given it a Platinum rating and put the workarounds used in the Comments section of my test results, and I would like to know if I am doing something wrong or if it is the websites issue.

[dimesio]

The following errors were found:
Please describe the workaround(s) used for this application.
Workarounds should not have been used if there were no problems that are not also present in Windows.

It wouldn't let you submit with a gold rating because you did not list the problems that required a workaround in the What does not work section. As the message says, workarounds should not have been used if there were no problems that are not also present on Windows.

However, looking at your report, it should never have been accepted at all because you used DXVK, which is a hacked version of some of Wine's dlls. The AppDB is for plain Wine only. What you should have done is submit the report with the rating based on plain Wine, then mention in the extra comments section what problems DXVK fixes.

[sdack]

Hello,

I have a related question. An app, which for me requires no work-around and which I've submitted with a platinum rating, was down-graded by a maintainer to gold, because for him it requires a work-around.

The requirement itself, which the argument is about, are the MS fonts, which many applications need, but often cannot be provided simply due to their copyright. To deny an app a platinum rating only because of the MS fonts alone is questionable, because many applications need them and so many apps are possibly being denied the highest rating, when really it's a WINE problem for not providing these fonts in the first place and a very old one as such.

However as it stands does my distro provide these fonts system-wide in a separate package and it in fact does not require winetricks. For Debian does a proper WINE installation look like the following, i.e. in combination with an Nvidia card:

Code: Select all

dpkg --add-architecture i386
apt update
apt install \
      wine \
      wine32 \
      wine64 \
      libwine \
      libwine:i386 \
      fonts-wine \
      ttf-mscorefonts-installer \
      nvidia-alternative

Once WINE has been installed can the app be installed without requiring any work-arounds such as "winetricks corefonts". Yet, the maintainer decided to downgrade it to GOLD due to the fact that for him it requires "winetricks corefonts".

If I would accept the maintainer's logic then any app, which requires a decent OpenGL implementation could also not receive the highest rating either, because many users would first have to install the necessary drivers for it.

Why is this necessary? It's only pedantic and idiotic to deny apps the highest rating, because of this.

[dimesio]

What app was this? I happen to agree with you: if something is provided by a distro package, that is not a workaround. The fact that some distros may not provide everything Wine needs is why we ask for distro information; ratings may be different for different distros because of that.

[sdack]

The app is a game called EVE Online.

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager. ... &iId=25823

The maintainer deliberately removed one of my comments from the Additional Comments-section and pasted it into the What does not-section and Workaround-section:

You do not need to install the corefonts with winetricks, but instead do you have to install the Debian package "ttf-mscorefonts-installer", which installs the Microsoft fonts system-wide for all users and for any software, including any possible WINE applications.

This part of my comment (as well as the remaining part) are meant as an explanation for those who forget to install the package and then keep telling others how "winetricks corefonts" would be needed. I specifically had written it to avoid this from happening, only to find the maintainer to use it against it and so denying the Plantinum rating.

Should the rating be changed then I'd like my comment to be restored in full, too, please.

My test result was originally rejected with the argument that others would be using additional winetricks (i.e. somebody using Arch Linux and WINE Staging reported to be using winetricks corefonts d3dx9_36 vcrun2005 vcrun2008 vcrun2010). These are definitely not needed today for WINE 3.20 on Debian 10 "Buster". Yet the maintainer thought to doubt me and so rejected my first request, which lead me to resend it with additional commentary.

I've been playing the game on Linux since 2009 and have been following its development. There once was a time when the game had a Platinum rating, but it fell behind and required several winetricks (around WINE 1.6-2.0) and briefly did run on Linux at all (prior to WINE 3.0). These are however issues of the past and as of WINE 3.20 can one install and run the game out-of-the-box on Debian 10 Buster.

Should Steam Proton, which is currently based on WINE 3.16, be based of WINE3.20+ will we likely see the game getting whitelisted by Valve for Steam Linux, too, where players can enjoy the game out-of-the-box including DXVK and not a single work-around (assuming they install all the proper packages of course...).

[dimesio]

I've restored your rating and comment for the test report. I've also emailed all four Eve maintainers the following:

I'm emailing this to all the maintainers, as I do not know which one is the guilty party.

The user who submitted https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager. ... &iId=25823 has complained on the forum (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31337#p119315) that his test report was incorrectly changed from Platinum to Gold by whoever processed the test report.

The user is correct, and I have restored his report back to the original rating and comments.

For future reference:

1. Installing something from a distro package is NEVER considered a workaround. Wine is intended to work with dependencies provided by the host system.
2. The fact that distros differ in what they provide means that ratings may differ between distros. This is precisely why we ask for distro information.

[WhyNotHugo]

In this particular case, the game did not work flawlessly, unless extra steps were taken.

In this case, mscorefonts are required. This is usually installed by running "winetricks mscorefonts", but in this scenario, the user installed the exact same package via his distribution's package manager.

This still sounds like a workaround for me, and, above all, it's pretty misleading for users of vanilla wine. Installing "just wine" either on Debian or other distributions won't result in a "Platinum" experience for Eve Online; additional steps need to be taken (in this case, installing mscorefonts).

Having to take extra steps to avoid failures is pretty much the definition of workaround.

[sdack]

Thank you. I appreciate your help.

I'd like to provide some additional information and to give a better understanding.

The game runs fine even without the MS fonts and comes with its own fonts. However the license agreement, which players have to agree to before they can play the game, requires a MS font or else the agreement shows as invisible. It is the sole reason why the MS fonts are considered a requirement for EVE Online. All else is rendered in the game's own fonts.

Most EVE Online players will find this to be an unimportant part of the game, and I agree, yet from a legal stand point it isn't of course. This may have caused players to ignore the MS fonts including the fact that distros have packages for these MS fonts.

Debian allows one to install a minimal WINE installation, consisting only of free software. The contrib and non-free package sections then provide the MS fonts as well as various proprietary graphics drivers (a Debian user may have to enable the use of non-free packages manually by editing /etc/apt/sources.list). In order to install and play the game does it require the already mentioned procedure:

Code: Select all

dpkg --add-architecture i386
apt update
apt install \
      wine \
      wine32 \
      wine64 \
      libwine \
      libwine:i386 \
      fonts-wine \
      ttf-mscorefonts-installer \
      nvidia-alternative

This is an example for a PC with Nvidia graphics.

It does not constitute a complete WINE installation! So is Vulkan support here still missing and requires further packages such as:

Code: Select all

apt install \
      mesa-vulkan-drivers \
      mesa-vulkan-drivers:i386

Additional hardware may require further packages to enable their support in WINE.

This only to underline the nature of a WINE installation on Debian... The game itself does not make use of Vulkan and does not require Vulkan support (yet can one use this to install DXVK and to get higher framerates ...).

[dimesio]

Wine has many dependencies, and the fact that a user has to install them is not a workaround. Workarounds are changes made to the wineprefix, e.g., installing dlls or changing settings.

Test reports are meant to reflect the individual reporter's experience, which may well differ from that of other users. In this case, the test report clearly explained that the user had already installed the MS core fonts systemwide and hence did not need to use winetricks. That user's experience was Platinum.

[sdack]

This is usually installed by running "winetricks mscorefonts", but in this scenario, the user installed the exact same package via his distribution's package manager.

The Debian package installs the MS fonts system-wide for all users and all applications. Whereas winetricks only installs the fonts into a single WINEPREFIX where these are then only available to the Windows applications under the prefix. There is however no requirement for these fonts to be kept isolated and nor does Windows isolate its fonts, but keeps them available to all applications. This makes winetricks a work-around and the Debian package is the correct and efficient method here.

There is then no "vanilla" WINE installation for Debian. Rather is it a minimal WINE installation, which in its minimal form consists only of free software. Any application requiring i.e. full OpenGL and Vulkan support, or other hardware support, will always have to install additional packages to enable these feature for WINE. This is how Debian works.