After being on this list for years, mostly as a lurker and sometime
participant, I find that due specifically to the new changes in list
membership via the forums that it's time for me to unsubscribe. While
I think it's a very healthy in the long run to have more folks
participating in Wine's growth I also find the quality of the emails
coming across my desk to be significantly less technically interesting
than they have historically been. The message content showing up now
generally doesn't have any quoted information and is only a response
to some discussion in the forum. If I haven't saved the whole thread
in GMail then it becomes pointless to try and help or even figure out
what the discussion is about.
None of this implies that linking the forums to this list is wrong.
It isn't. It's just wrong for me. And while I think it's great that
there are more messages on the list some things, such as the value of
the list, cannot be measured in raw numbers.
I wish everyone the best of luck. I'll continue to use Wine. Maybe
I'll even become a forum user in an attempt to both help out once in
awhile as well as ask a question from time to time.
Best wishes,
Mark
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
-
John Drescher
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John Drescher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Wine] After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
To: Mark Knecht <[email protected]>
go to my wine folder and I clear out the inbox every time I check my
mail with archive.
John
--
John M. Drescher
From: John Drescher <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Wine] After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
To: Mark Knecht <[email protected]>
With gmail I just never delete (unless spam). All of the wine messagesIf I haven't saved the whole thread
in GMail then it becomes pointless to try and help or even figure out
what the discussion is about.
go to my wine folder and I clear out the inbox every time I check my
mail with archive.
John
--
John M. Drescher
-
John Drescher
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Mark Knecht <[email protected]> wrote:
current form. Perhaps this will improve over time.
John
I see. I am only at the 1.1 GB point right now...On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:06 PM, John Drescher <[email protected]> wrote:Hi John,With gmail I just never delete (unless spam). All of the wine messagesIf I haven't saved the whole thread
in GMail then it becomes pointless to try and help or even figure out
what the discussion is about.
go to my wine folder and I clear out the inbox every time I check my
mail with archive.
John
Yeah, but I already have 4GB of email in my GMail account and I've
been reluctant to let it grow further even though they allow 6+GB now.
I find it annoying/awkward that the two are linked as well in theAfter all, it isn't like I can't participate. I'll just look at the
forums once in awhile. In the meantime I won't have to deal with so
much silly noise. To me the value of forums is that they don't invade
your life. Folks who like participating that way look when they are
interested. On the other hand folks who want to be on an email list
generally like to stay informed. I've always used my Linux lists
almost like a news source. Now I'll have to go get my news instead of
having it delivered to my doorstep. To me that's a step backwards but
preferable in this case.
current form. Perhaps this will improve over time.
John
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
The forum could top-quote the whole thread (or the last 5 messages +
title?) in these cases.
I, however, find it a silly decision to make. I don't see what's the
big issue about it. I've been getting tons of emails and I'm at my
736Mb/6589Mb already (and I made this account 4-5 years ago), and
also, what's the point of still having old, old old old list emails,
that might have been discussions over bugs or fixes that are already
applied and working fine? I know, it's stupid to say but I wanted to
point something out.
You seem to be unsatisfied at the "lack of techy-ness" of the emails.
Well, let me remember you that this is wine-USERS. By users, I'm
talking about people ranging to those who don't even know what the
hell WINE is and ask that, in the forum they reached by the website
that explains what WINE is, to people who can code you a brand new
algorithm for anything you can think of in a day. It also means you
can find full ranters, flamers (like those who randomly spit caps and
pointless arguments for the hell of it, then try to be the wise ones
afterwards) and almost every spawn on the net.
"Oh, I'm too elitist, wine-users isn't for me because of the noobs" is
what your email said to me in a few words. Not with intentions to be
offensive, in fact it was very polite
, but you know, it's a downer.
I sincerely hope you can re-think your decision and, instead, help
improve the mailing list's quality (and the emails too) by helping the
new users. You weren't born self-taught, and I'm sure you might have
done two or three stupid things in your life and maybe "decreased the
quality level" in your family or friends or social groups or parties
or whatever. I've done that a few times, nobody's perfect.
If you choose to leave forever though, good luck in your endeavours.
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 4:49 PM, John Drescher <[email protected]> wrote:
title?) in these cases.
I, however, find it a silly decision to make. I don't see what's the
big issue about it. I've been getting tons of emails and I'm at my
736Mb/6589Mb already (and I made this account 4-5 years ago), and
also, what's the point of still having old, old old old list emails,
that might have been discussions over bugs or fixes that are already
applied and working fine? I know, it's stupid to say but I wanted to
point something out.
You seem to be unsatisfied at the "lack of techy-ness" of the emails.
Well, let me remember you that this is wine-USERS. By users, I'm
talking about people ranging to those who don't even know what the
hell WINE is and ask that, in the forum they reached by the website
that explains what WINE is, to people who can code you a brand new
algorithm for anything you can think of in a day. It also means you
can find full ranters, flamers (like those who randomly spit caps and
pointless arguments for the hell of it, then try to be the wise ones
afterwards) and almost every spawn on the net.
"Oh, I'm too elitist, wine-users isn't for me because of the noobs" is
what your email said to me in a few words. Not with intentions to be
offensive, in fact it was very polite
, but you know, it's a downer.I sincerely hope you can re-think your decision and, instead, help
improve the mailing list's quality (and the emails too) by helping the
new users. You weren't born self-taught, and I'm sure you might have
done two or three stupid things in your life and maybe "decreased the
quality level" in your family or friends or social groups or parties
or whatever. I've done that a few times, nobody's perfect.
If you choose to leave forever though, good luck in your endeavours.
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 4:49 PM, John Drescher <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Mark Knecht <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:06 PM, John Drescher <[email protected]> wrote:I see. I am only at the 1.1 GB point right now...Hi John,With gmail I just never delete (unless spam). All of the wine messages
go to my wine folder and I clear out the inbox every time I check my
mail with archive.
John
Yeah, but I already have 4GB of email in my GMail account and I've
been reluctant to let it grow further even though they allow 6+GB now.
I find it annoying/awkward that the two are linked as well in theAfter all, it isn't like I can't participate. I'll just look at the
forums once in awhile. In the meantime I won't have to deal with so
much silly noise. To me the value of forums is that they don't invade
your life. Folks who like participating that way look when they are
interested. On the other hand folks who want to be on an email list
generally like to stay informed. I've always used my Linux lists
almost like a news source. Now I'll have to go get my news instead of
having it delivered to my doorstep. To me that's a step backwards but
preferable in this case.
current form. Perhaps this will improve over time.
John
-
Paul Johnson
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Friday 04 April 2008 06:18:48 pm DARKGuy . wrote:
well-quoted message will still make sense out of proper thread context, even
if previous messages never made it. There's no need to go have it spit out
ancient history from upthread...
Speaking of which, I know correct quoting is readily possible in gmail;
strongly consider doing that instead of top-posting.
documentation, preferring to save list traffic for firefighting trickier
problems not readily gleaned from the documentation.
to prevent such things from happening in the future. Chasing away
experienced users does a great disservice to new users in the long term.
technically oriented lists.
- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFH9yPcUCxPKZafKh0RAmsZAKDwLKUIz1JAEnDQ7A23hB1NMv7s4ACeMEjg
WBbhEFodewhHiPe36bKHjwg=
=nVV+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Friday 04 April 2008 06:18:48 pm DARKGuy . wrote:
It would be better if it encouraged conversational quoting, since aThe forum could top-quote the whole thread (or the last 5 messages +
title?) in these cases.
well-quoted message will still make sense out of proper thread context, even
if previous messages never made it. There's no need to go have it spit out
ancient history from upthread...
Speaking of which, I know correct quoting is readily possible in gmail;
strongly consider doing that instead of top-posting.
It's often easier to search one's own archives than, say, a forum.I, however, find it a silly decision to make. I don't see what's the
big issue about it. I've been getting tons of emails and I'm at my
736Mb/6589Mb already (and I made this account 4-5 years ago), and
also, what's the point of still having old, old old old list emails,
that might have been discussions over bugs or fixes that are already
applied and working fine? I know, it's stupid to say but I wanted to
point something out.
I can recall a time when wine-users rightfully sent people to theYou seem to be unsatisfied at the "lack of techy-ness" of the emails.
Well, let me remember you that this is wine-USERS. By users, I'm
talking about people ranging to those who don't even know what the
hell WINE is and ask that, in the forum they reached by the website
that explains what WINE is, to people who can code you a brand new
algorithm for anything you can think of in a day. It also means you
can find full ranters, flamers (like those who randomly spit caps and
pointless arguments for the hell of it, then try to be the wise ones
afterwards) and almost every spawn on the net.
documentation, preferring to save list traffic for firefighting trickier
problems not readily gleaned from the documentation.
I would take a closer look at causation instead of dwelling on the consequence"Oh, I'm too elitist, wine-users isn't for me because of the noobs" is
what your email said to me in a few words. Not with intentions to be
offensive, in fact it was very polite
to prevent such things from happening in the future. Chasing away
experienced users does a great disservice to new users in the long term.
There's a readily apparent difference between social environments andI sincerely hope you can re-think your decision and, instead, help
improve the mailing list's quality (and the emails too) by helping the
new users. You weren't born self-taught, and I'm sure you might have
done two or three stupid things in your life and maybe "decreased the
quality level" in your family or friends or social groups or parties
or whatever. I've done that a few times, nobody's perfect.
technically oriented lists.
- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFH9yPcUCxPKZafKh0RAmsZAKDwLKUIz1JAEnDQ7A23hB1NMv7s4ACeMEjg
WBbhEFodewhHiPe36bKHjwg=
=nVV+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Paul Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
automatically? it's kinda annoying to move to the end of everything
when you reply.
your archives are gone down the drain. So much for keeping archives -
same on forums though =/ but I have to agree that it's easier, or at
least, less clicks away
.
frustrating to ask for help somewhere after you've googled and looked
for documentation around, to find some human-bots giving you the same
links you've read, being rude to you and absolutely not helping at
all, other than saying RTFM in different ways, or start to make fun of
you. It doesn't help at all.
Personally, I've felt better with the current mailing list traffic...
there's more help oriented to what people use WINE for, to what it's
in great demand (Steam, IE6-7, Office 2003/2007, Warcraft 3, WoW, old
16-bit games...) and more people helping each other and trying
solutions.
of mailing list and forum. His problem is apparently the lack of
technicism in the latest emails, the lack of quoting and assumes
everyone uses the forum. There's people who are in the mailing list
and sometimes quote and sometimes don't. There's no way you can force
people to do so, specially forum-spawn, unless you ban them for that,
but then, you'll need to have a ton of moderators taking a look at
each forum post, then everybody getting banned and utter chaos of
threads like "WHY DID U BAN ME FXXX MODZZZZ!!!!11!!1oneoneelevenone".
Thing would be how to improve the situation instead.
HOWEVER he just leaves instead of suggesting a solution and saving the
trouble. A lot of people complain, but few suggest constructive
critics.
from the last emails when the forum fuss started.
Well, it was just a suggestion o_o... and do you know if gmail does soIt would be better if it encouraged conversational quoting, since a
well-quoted message will still make sense out of proper thread context, even
if previous messages never made it. There's no need to go have it spit out
ancient history from upthread...
Speaking of which, I know correct quoting is readily possible in gmail;
strongly consider doing that instead of top-posting.
automatically? it's kinda annoying to move to the end of everything
when you reply.
Then you reinstall or the mail server decides to take a break and allIt's often easier to search one's own archives than, say, a forum.
your archives are gone down the drain. So much for keeping archives -
same on forums though =/ but I have to agree that it's easier, or at
least, less clicks away
.RTFM isn't an always-works option though, and it's sometimesI can recall a time when wine-users rightfully sent people to the
documentation, preferring to save list traffic for firefighting trickier
problems not readily gleaned from the documentation.
frustrating to ask for help somewhere after you've googled and looked
for documentation around, to find some human-bots giving you the same
links you've read, being rude to you and absolutely not helping at
all, other than saying RTFM in different ways, or start to make fun of
you. It doesn't help at all.
Personally, I've felt better with the current mailing list traffic...
there's more help oriented to what people use WINE for, to what it's
in great demand (Steam, IE6-7, Office 2003/2007, Warcraft 3, WoW, old
16-bit games...) and more people helping each other and trying
solutions
.It does, but it's their decision. The cause has always been the mergeI would take a closer look at causation instead of dwelling on the consequence
to prevent such things from happening in the future. Chasing away
experienced users does a great disservice to new users in the long term.
of mailing list and forum. His problem is apparently the lack of
technicism in the latest emails, the lack of quoting and assumes
everyone uses the forum. There's people who are in the mailing list
and sometimes quote and sometimes don't. There's no way you can force
people to do so, specially forum-spawn, unless you ban them for that,
but then, you'll need to have a ton of moderators taking a look at
each forum post, then everybody getting banned and utter chaos of
threads like "WHY DID U BAN ME FXXX MODZZZZ!!!!11!!1oneoneelevenone".
Thing would be how to improve the situation instead.
HOWEVER he just leaves instead of suggesting a solution and saving the
trouble. A lot of people complain, but few suggest constructive
critics.
IMHO, for the "technical" stuff there's wine-devel, or so I've learntThere's a readily apparent difference between social environments and
technically oriented lists.
from the last emails when the forum fuss started.
-
Mark Knecht
- Newbie
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:35 pm
Re: After years - goodbye to Wine-Users
We each get to make our own decisions. You have a right to think it's 'silly'. I have a right to think your thinking it 'silly' is 'insensitive'. (I don't, by the way, think it's insensitive. I'm just making a point.)DARKGuy wrote: I, however, find it a silly decision to make. I don't see what's the
big issue about it.
<SNIP>
Not at all. I'm unsatisfied with the link to the forums this list has lost focus on the topic. I'm not saying it's gone, I'm saying the focus has decreased. That may change and hopefully improve over time. I hope it does. But for now it's not worth my time receiving *every* comment made in the forums with the hope of weeding out one or two that I might be able to comment on.DARKGuy wrote: You seem to be unsatisfied at the "lack of techy-ness" of the emails.
Well, let me remember you that this is wine-USERS.
I most certainly NEVER said that. I was very polite, purposely so. If you read anything into what I wrote then that's you, not me.DARKGuy wrote: "Oh, I'm too elitist, wine-users isn't for me because of the noobs" is
what your email said to me in a few words. Not with intentions to be
offensive, in fact it was very polite
Heck, I'm a noob, when compared to Dan, vitamin, Tom W and many, many others. I am someone who has used Wine off and on for years and figure (Hope? Pray?) I have something to offer. However life is a trade off and if the forums are going to be so free form as to allow anything be written down AND if the linkage is going to put EVERY comment made in the forums into my in-box without any context and leave it to me to find it then I don't need it simply because I know myself and I won't read the messages and try hard enough to make a difference.
I will not. That decision is made, at least for now.DARKGuy wrote: I sincerely hope you can re-think your decision and, instead, help
improve the mailing list's quality (and the emails too) by helping the
new users.
I'll watch the forums over time and see if it becomes more worth my time to rejoin the list. Should someone decide to split the two again I'd be back pretty much immediately. I figure the noobs ALWAYS had the opportunity to join the list, if they wanted to. This was a decision taken from on high that does have a downside at least to some of us, but certainly not all.
Oh, by the way, if it's not clear I AM responding FROM the forums where I hope I can still help a little. I may be the first person to have quit the list and moved to the forum. I'm not happy about that. Messing with all this quoting took too much time.
Unfortunately for those who I might possibly be able to help this will mean I might try to help 1 person once a week instead of trying to help 1-3 people every day. That's the downside of this linkage. But hey - at least I'm a forum member! I'll read some threads here and maybe I'll get to like it. Who know? I've talked to a couple of folks that just quit completely. I don't intend to do that. No need to since the forums don't insert themselves forcibly into my life.
Cheers,
Mark
