Alexandre says "let the newbies run as root"

[Timeout]

It's not about the installation of Java. It's about the installation of Software USING Java.
For my part, the java installation hanging is not affecting Java's running. It's a cosmetic error because when running the installation for the second time, it does go through. Last tested on 0.9.56, Java was still running.

Affected string that I remove:
config.c

if (st.st_uid != getuid()) fatal_error( "%s is not owned by you\n", config_dir );

[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 12:05:37 am Timeout wrote:

I am using Suse.
I am not using debian, Ubuntu was my first experience and it did not remain
on my disk for more than 48 hours (hardware not supported). Now that I got
to learn about the .rpm I don't want to start with .deb.

.deb is really easy by comparison, aptitude does literally everything for you
instead of sending you into dependency hell looking for every RPM you need to
install the RPM you want. RPM based distros are generally exceedingly
difficult to upgrade thanks to the poor package management.

I may not be what you want to hear, but my first concern is that my
software get freed from Windows.

I'd look at finding alternatives to the software you use in Windows and use
wine as a last resort; you'll find native versions to be less problematic
than emulating a legacy environment like Windows.

And if this means reformatting my disk
every 3 months because of my uneducated experience, i will go for it, when
it's mean that I am not spending more than one hour a week on Windows.

I'd look at gaining actual experience instead of wasting time needlessly
reinstalling when you have a working system.

Many possibilities of root do not have a GUI.

Root really, really should not be using GUI programs anyway. I can't
recall /any/ GUI software that's been properly tested for security issues
when run as root.

This is what will distinguish the starters with
the more educated. Starters (or most of them) can not start with the shell
as well as the Windows super user which is not clearly appearing on start.
My book about Linux for beginner is not mentioning anything with fstack.

fstack?

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Paul Johnson]

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Please learn to quote, and/or use the mailing list instead (at least until the
bug has been fixed). Without proper quotes and with the forum breaking
threads, the forum falls well short of making posts readable.
http://learn.to/quote
http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users

On Sunday 23 March 2008 03:28:11 am Timeout wrote:

But I feel like somebody cutting my hand because thieves are using hands.
Like you said, users are using root for some reason and one has to
understand *why* they are doing it.

You're still missing it: You should NEVER use root for normal user tasks.
This isn't a matter of user expectation, but basic security common sense:
You should NEVER use administrator for normal user tasks in Windows, either,
for the same reason. It makes your system extremely vulnerable to bugs,
viruses, trojan horses, etc. Using the user security permissions provided by
your operating system greatly limits the possible damage caused by
misbehaving software to only the files you have write-access to (generally
just your home directory and a few files in /tmp or /var/tmp).

For my purpose I removed the check and I am using the software as usual as
user, but telling people having a problem with Java just to go back to
0.9.49 is not a solution either.

Why? If the other version is the problem, why is it that going back to a
working version is "not a solution?"

I remain to the fact that if no .wine directory were created as root then
.wine would not have root's right from the first place because it would be
installed as user. Other checks should be made non compulsory.

You're wrong. Who owns your ~/.wine does not determine what user wine runs
as.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Dan Kegel]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 7:37 AM, Timeout <[email protected]> wrote:

Affected string that I remove:
config.c

if (st.st_uid != getuid()) fatal_error( "%s is not owned by you\n", config_dir );

Oh. Darn. I thought you had found the patch that caused java
to require root.

It kind of sounds like you always used root, but I'm not sure why.

But that bug (10584) was complicated and confusing; it's an example of
perhaps trying too hard to get an app running when Wine isn't ready for it.
I don't know if we can draw too many conclusions from it.
- Dan

[Zoltan Boszormenyi]

Paul Johnson írta:

.deb is really easy by comparison, aptitude does literally everything for you
instead of sending you into dependency hell looking for every RPM you need to
install the RPM you want. RPM based distros are generally exceedingly
difficult to upgrade thanks to the poor package management.

Sorry, that's just FUD. You face the same dependency hell
if you use plain old dpkg, the rpm equivalent. Please, compare yum
with apt-get or compare yumex or pirut or whatever that does
package management presenting a GUI with aptitude if you want to be fair.=

[David Gerard]

On 23/03/2008, Zoltan Boszormenyi <[email protected]> wrote:

Paul Johnson írta:

.deb is really easy by comparison, aptitude does literally everything for you
instead of sending you into dependency hell looking for every RPM you need to
install the RPM you want. RPM based distros are generally exceedingly
difficult to upgrade thanks to the poor package management.

Sorry, that's just FUD. You face the same dependency hell
if you use plain old dpkg, the rpm equivalent. Please, compare yum
with apt-get or compare yumex or pirut or whatever that does
package management presenting a GUI with aptitude if you want to be fair.

I concur. The user experience depends entirely on the repository. apt
is lovely on Debian and Ubuntu because Debian take incredible care
with the quality of their repository. yum on Fedora isn't bad at all.
apt on Fink is mediocre because their repository is crappy.

The myth arose because yum was a long time coming, and Debian happens
to have a high quality repository that just happens to use deb instead
of rpm.

Now, back to Wine ...


- d.

[Timeout]

I'd look at finding alternatives to the software you use in Windows and use
wine as a last resort; you'll find native versions to be less problematic
than emulating a legacy environment like Windows.

Open Source? Please! Tell graphic people to use Gimp instead of Photoshop.
What I am trying to run is the widest used tool of my market, developed over more than 25 years, partially owned by Microsoft and offering the best tools for converting the widest range of files format.

Because clients don't want to send their text as txt. They want to send it in the format they had been created and get it back in this format. This tools saves us for having to bother having to buy QuarkXpress, Indesign, Framemaker or bothering with the tags of html or scripts because it does not come to the mind of clients wanting to reformat the files they get. Open source is best for translators but not for agencies last responsible for checking the text or reformatting the mess that translators made.

I'd look at gaining actual experience instead of wasting time needlessly
reinstalling when you have a working system.

This has nothing to do with experience. That's a problem of graphic card not properly recognized and things turning bad when there is an update of the driver kernel/problems with drivers. And I am still updating my drivers because they have still issues.

I personally don't care about what you are thinking of me. I am getting my software to work apart from some menu problems, macro loading problem within Word, licensing or cursor issue.
To that point it's pretty much irrelevant what Wine is doing.
And as I got this error, I was not running as root, I was using it user, using a packaged Wine that I installed using Yast as User.
Furthermore, I didn't change the title which broke the thread.

Now go on your own as your wish. I will continue to adapt Wine to my software in my back garden.

[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 10:30:45 am Zoltan Boszormenyi wrote:

Paul Johnson írta:

.deb is really easy by comparison, aptitude does literally everything for
you instead of sending you into dependency hell looking for every RPM you
need to install the RPM you want. RPM based distros are generally
exceedingly difficult to upgrade thanks to the poor package management.

Sorry, that's just FUD. You face the same dependency hell
if you use plain old dpkg, the rpm equivalent. Please, compare yum
with apt-get or compare yumex or pirut or whatever that does
package management presenting a GUI with aptitude if you want to be fair.

That was partly my point. There's no single comprehensive interface to RPM
like there is with apt. Name one that comes close to working as well as apt
(no, apt-rpm doesn't compare to regular apt, either) then you might have a
point.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 11:23:09 am Timeout wrote:

I'd look at finding alternatives to the software you use in Windows and
use wine as a last resort; you'll find native versions to be less
problematic than emulating a legacy environment like Windows.

Open Source? Please! Tell graphic people to use Gimp instead of Photoshop.

That wrongly assumes that The Gimp is trying to be a photoshop replacement to
begin with. The Gimp is closer to Photoshop Elements or Paintshop in terms
of what it's going for. That being said, the vast majority of people who
claim to need photoshop don't use it for anything that the Gimp couldn't
handle. Industry experience and the law of averages strongly suggest that if
you do need Photoshop instead of Gimp, you won't be here anyway because MacOS
already has a native Photoshop...

Because clients don't want to send their text as txt. They want to send it
in the format they had been created and get it back in this format. This
tools saves us for having to bother having to buy QuarkXpress, Indesign,
Framemaker or bothering with the tags of html or scripts because it does
not come to the mind of clients wanting to reformat the files they get.
Open source is best for translators but not for agencies last responsible
for checking the text or reformatting the mess that translators made.

Never mind that even the latest MS office versions support Open Document
Format since it became the ISO standard for office documents, and ODF is
already well supported by office software. Your "nobody wants to exchange
txt" is a strawman.

If you hate open source so much, why use Linux or Wine in the first place? Or
is this a case of misguided anger generated by ignorance?

I'd look at gaining actual experience instead of wasting time needlessly
reinstalling when you have a working system.

This has nothing to do with experience. That's a problem of graphic card
not properly recognized and things turning bad when there is an update of
the driver kernel/problems with drivers. And I am still updating my drivers
because they have still issues.

You still don't need to reinstall just because your drivers go south...boot
from a rescue CD and fix from there. About the only time you really need to
reinstall is if your system gets compromised...

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Timeout]

Never mind that even the latest MS office versions support Open Document
Format since it became the ISO standard for office documents, and ODF is
already well supported by office software. Your "nobody wants to exchange
txt" is a strawman.

If you hate open source so much, why use Linux or Wine in the first place? Or
is this a case of misguided anger generated by ignorance?

I am not hating open source, I find it great and I love my linux box.

Fact is, that since I set up my company, I have seen many kind of documents, even under PowerPoint for Office 95. I have yet to see the first ODF document.
Trados is supporting ODF but what's the point, I have never received one and we are not the one to decide in which format the texts are coming.

Please ask around any translators if they see many ODF. That will be the first indicator of it being used by business and not what governments are saying.

You still don't need to reinstall just because your drivers go south...boot
from a rescue CD and fix from there. About the only time you really need to
reinstall is if your system gets compromised...

I need to reformat the home partition because otherwise I have a ghost partition. Telling me I have 2 GB used and 5 GB free out of a 86 GB home partition. For my purpose it's to small.

[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 12:09:47 pm Timeout wrote:

Please ask around any translators if they see many ODF. That will be the
first indicator of it being used by business and not what governments are
saying.

I run my own business. We made the transition to ODF already and only come
across the odd XLS every once in a while (in which it gets converted to ODF
in short order anyway). You can no longer apply for state jobs or exchange
documents with state government here with MS-format documents except with one
or two smaller bureaus that haven't joined us in the third millennium yet;
it's ODF, PDF or the highway as far as Oregon's concerned these days.

You still don't need to reinstall just because your drivers go
south...boot from a rescue CD and fix from there. About the only time
you really need to reinstall is if your system gets compromised...

I need to reformat the home partition because otherwise I have a ghost
partition. Telling me I have 2 GB used and 5 GB free out of a 86 GB home
partition. For my purpose it's to small.

Aaah, that wasn't made clear earlier. It sounded like you were reinstalling
because of something considerably more superficial than that.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Zoltan Boszormenyi]

Paul Johnson írta:

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 10:30:45 am Zoltan Boszormenyi wrote:

Paul Johnson írta:

.deb is really easy by comparison, aptitude does literally everything for
you instead of sending you into dependency hell looking for every RPM you
need to install the RPM you want. RPM based distros are generally
exceedingly difficult to upgrade thanks to the poor package management.

Sorry, that's just FUD. You face the same dependency hell
if you use plain old dpkg, the rpm equivalent. Please, compare yum
with apt-get or compare yumex or pirut or whatever that does
package management presenting a GUI with aptitude if you want to be fair.

That was partly my point. There's no single comprehensive interface to RPM
like there is with apt. Name one that comes close to working as well as apt
(no, apt-rpm doesn't compare to regular apt, either) then you might have a
point.

Sorry, are synaptic and aptitude "single comprehensive interface to
DPKG"? Come on!
OK, enough of it, I won't continue, no need to despise each others'
package managers.

[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 12:19:00 pm Zoltan Boszormenyi wrote:

Sorry, are synaptic and aptitude "single comprehensive interface to
DPKG"? Come on!

synaptic and aptitude both use the apt framework; the differences between them
are minor at worst.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[MichaelMcDonnell]

It's not about the installation of Java. It's about the installation of Software USING Java.
For my part, the java installation hanging is not affecting Java's running. It's a cosmetic error because when running the installation for the second time, it does go through. Last tested on 0.9.56, Java was still running.

Affected string that I remove:
config.c

if (st.st_uid != getuid()) fatal_error( "%s is not owned by you\n", config_dir );

Timeout this is not a bug. It's because you have run wine in the past as root. This causes some of your wine configuration files to owned by root instead of the normal user. You can fix this by changing the permissions of the .wine directory and its contents. Run the following command and replace username with your user name:

$ sudo chown -R username:username /home/username/.wine

Hope it helps.

[oiaohm]

Now Timeout is just been a better and better case why wine should just jack up as running as root.

Everyone (Not exactly). This is if wine should or should not be forbid to run as root. Distribution operation selections have really nothing to do with it.

Everyone here is getting off topic. Also please don't repeat old out bad directions.

Gimp instead of Photoshop no that does not happen really Krita + cinepaint more likely. Note cinepaint is channel width upgraded gimp. 2.6 gimp will hopefully be able to work with 32 bit per color data.

Also lot of pointing to applications is pointless without knowing the features they need. Look at one program alone because its the most advertised leads to people missing out better applications out there.

Same seams to be common for Timeout security skill. First thing I do when I move platform is find out how its security works. This non though threw pointing is this a trait of new users?

Out of this I am wondering if we should have website links with advice on security related failures. Most likely since I have been using Linux from 1994 I could never think this level of incompetence could exist.

[austin987]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 12:38 AM, oiaohm <[email protected]> wrote:

Now Timeout is just been a better and better case why wine should just jack up as running as root.

Everyone (Not exactly). This is if wine should or should not be forbid to run as root. Distribution operation selections have really nothing to do with it.

Everyone here is getting off topic. Also please don't repeat old out bad directions.

Gimp instead of Photoshop no that does not happen really Krita + cinepaint more likely. Note cinepaint is channel width upgraded gimp. 2.6 gimp will hopefully be able to work with 32 bit per color data.

Also lot of pointing to applications is pointless without knowing the features they need. Look at one program alone because its the most advertised leads to people missing out better applications out there.

Same seams to be common for Timeout security skill. First thing I do when I move platform is find out how its security works. This non though threw pointing is this a trait of new users?

Out of this I am wondering if we should have website links with advice on security related failures. Most likely since I have been using Linux from 1994 I could never think this level of incompetence could exist.

Please take non-wine discussions off the mailing list/forums.

[Timeout]

Now you are telling me instead of using the standard setting of my distribution I will have to change the whole setting of my distribution to please one software. I will keep on changing that one software to match my hardware. After all, I am grown-up and I don't have to be protected against myself. If I want this attitude, I can remain by Windows and save me the hassle.

I am not going to do that. Are you going to tell all users with the same settings to make sudo?

Maybe my incompetence is reaching the water of the arrogance. And about the discussion about incompetence and ODF that's pretty much out of topic. And forcing one's liking to the client's need is the best way to close the business. I know somebody who probably lost her clients because she was sending docx documents and the client was not ready for them (using officeXP).

[Dan Kegel]

I think this thread has wandered way off topic...

[Zoltan Boszormenyi]

Paul Johnson írta:

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 12:19:00 pm Zoltan Boszormenyi wrote:

Sorry, are synaptic and aptitude "single comprehensive interface to
DPKG"? Come on!

synaptic and aptitude both use the apt framework; the differences between them
are minor at worst.

So as pup/pirut/yumex use the yum framework, minor differences in the GUI...

Best regards,
Zoltán Böszörményi

[Zoltan Boszormenyi]

Dan Kegel írta:

I think this thread has wandered way off topic...

Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to educatate the one who doesn't know
the other distros' details. Now back to Wine...

[Timeout]

Now next question about Viruses:

You are starting from the point that I will get viruses.
Just by using Trados, an off line tool which is at the most checking another instance of a network because of licensing.

How are you assuming that I could get that virus. You can stop altogether working on the BITS or on auto-updates on software.

Can't you simply start by not allowing uncontrolled connexions to the Internet (like adding an offline-modus in winecfg instead on blocking the root)?
The virus I got on Windows was per auto-upload, even with 2 firewalls, a router and an antivirus.
The concerned software was refusing to open without being able to check the license online, thus one had to allow it. Someday it autoupdated with a virus.

Don't you think the first concern would be no automatic download of executables? I don't think getting an answer about a license is an executable.

[austin987]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Timeout <[email protected]> wrote:

Now next question about Viruses:

You are starting from the point that I will get viruses.
Just by using Trados, an off line tool which is at the most checking another instance of a network because of licensing.

How are you assuming that I could get that virus. You can stop altogether working on the BITS or on auto-updates on software.

Can't you simply start by not allowing uncontrolled connexions to the Internet (like adding an offline-modus in winecfg instead on blocking the root)?
The virus I got on Windows was per auto-upload, even with 2 firewalls, a router and an antivirus.
The concerned software was refusing to open without being able to check the license online, thus one had to allow it. Someday it autoupdated with a virus.

Don't you think the first concern would be no automatic download of executables? I don't think getting an answer about a license is an executable.

It is STILL POSSIBLE TO RUN AS ROOT. You have to either login as root,
sudo su to root, or run sudo wineprefixcreate first then run your apps
with sudo. The behavior you speak of is very inconsistent with
windows, and is not something wine needs to/should do.

If you want to run your program as root and feel safe/the need to do
that, go for it. However, for the majority of users, that is not the
case, and this prevents accidentally doing so. If power users need to
do so, they have the ability with the aforementioned exclusion.

[Paul Johnson]

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On Sunday 23 March 2008 10:27:23 pm Timeout wrote:

Now you are telling me instead of using the standard setting of my
distribution I will have to change the whole setting of my distribution to
please one software.

Who are you referring to? You started a new thread and didn't quote anything!
Please reply to the existing thread and QUOTE!

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[Paul Johnson]

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On Monday 24 March 2008 03:47:59 am Timeout wrote:

Can't you simply start by not allowing uncontrolled connexions to the
Internet (like adding an offline-modus in winecfg instead on blocking the
root)?

What reason would one EVER need to run end-user software as root in the first
place? Wine or not, that's just terrible practice.

- --
Paul Johnson
[email protected]
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[austin987]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:50 AM, Paul Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:

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On Monday 24 March 2008 03:47:59 am Timeout wrote:

Can't you simply start by not allowing uncontrolled connexions to the
Internet (like adding an offline-modus in winecfg instead on blocking the
root)?

What reason would one EVER need to run end-user software as root in the first
place? Wine or not, that's just terrible practice.

Some wine functions require root access, ICMP ping for instance.
However, in practice, these are few and far between and those users
that need these functions can work around this by using the
aforementioned methods. The vast majority of users have NO reason to
run wine as root.