status of Jack?

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:59 pm

Hi,

Could someone please explain me what is the current status of the jack
audio back-end?
(Both midi and audio.)

The feature to switch back-end seems to have disappeared from winecfg,
and I can't find anything useful in the docs either.

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

Post by **dimesio** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:50 pm

Csillag Kristof wrote: Could someone please explain me what is the current status of the jack
audio back-end?

It no longer exists. http://wiki.winehq.org/Sound

jordan · Post by **jordan** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:20 pm

Hi,

Csillag Kristof wrote:
Could someone please explain me what is the current status of the jack
audio back-end?

It no longer exists. http://wiki.winehq.org/Sound

That being said, the majority of Jack users that i know (myself
included), are more likely to be using WineASIO for apps (that support
ASIO, so pretty much any windows proaudio centric application) and
FST/Festige for VSTs.

You will note in the link above, it also cites WineASIO being available.

The removal of the old wine Jack driver had zero effect on my use of
windows applications with jackaudio.

cheerz

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:16 pm

At 2011-12-12 22:19, jordan wrote:

Hi,

Csillag Kristof wrote:
Could someone please explain me what is the current status of the jack
audio back-end?

It no longer exists. http://wiki.winehq.org/Sound
That being said, the majority of Jack users that i know (myself
included), are more likely to be using WineASIO for apps (that support
ASIO, so pretty much any windows proaudio centric application) and
FST/Festige for VSTs.

You will note in the link above, it also cites WineASIO being available.

The removal of the old wine Jack driver had zero effect on my use of
windows applications with jackaudio.

That's great news!

So, is the latest version if wineasio (0.9.0) compatible with the
current wine version (1.3.34), or should I go for cvs/svn?

Is this the right list to discuss wineasio and FST/Festige, or should I
take it to linux-audio?

(In fact, one of my primary goals in this project is to run Kontakt on
Linux, and since it'a VST, FST is my prime candidate for the job.
Stand-alone applications are a secondary goal.)

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

jordan · Post by **jordan** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:40 am

Hey Kristof,

So, is the latest version if wineasio (0.9.0) compatible with the current
wine version (1.3.34), or should I go for cvs/svn?

you can use any (modern) version of wine. I am currently using wine
1.3.34 (with the wine-rt patch). there's no point in grabbing the very
latest wine sources, as 1.3.34 is a development release, anyway.

Is this the right list to discuss wineasio and FST/Festige, or should I take
it to linux-audio?

Depends, i suppose. WineASIO gets talked about here and there on this
list, more often than FST/Festige anyway. You may find help on both
lists, but i would say try to figure out which list is better to post
on for a given question.

(In fact, one of my primary goals in this project is to run Kontakt on
Linux, and since it'a VST, FST is my prime candidate for the job.
Stand-alone applications are a secondary goal.)

Honestly, You are most likely going to periodically experience some
nasty audible xruns from Kontakt...just to give you a head's up.

You are probably better off making your own sample banks in say,
Linuxsampler - where you are going to actually get decent performance
out of them, without glitchyness (this is also true of Battery3, i
would know as i own N.I. Komplete 7).

Native instruments plugins can be dicey and mileage will vary! (with
WineASIO and/or Festige). it can be a little disappointing. You will
also either have to compile the latest wineASIO with INT32, and change
a wine registry setting to enable it (howto in readme i think),
otherwise N.I plugins just produce distortion. Alternatively, you can
use an older version of wineASIO, such as 0.7.5 .

cheerz

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:35 pm

2011-12-13 07:39 keltezéssel, jordan írta:

Hey Kristof,

So, is the latest version if wineasio (0.9.0) compatible with the current
wine version (1.3.34), or should I go for cvs/svn?
you can use any (modern) version of wine. I am currently using wine
1.3.34 (with the wine-rt patch). there's no point in grabbing the very
latest wine sources, as 1.3.34 is a development release, anyway.

I meant the SVN version of wineasio.

Last release of wineasio (0.9) came out 10 month ago. Is it still
compatible with current wine?

Honestly, You are most likely going to periodically experience some
nasty audible xruns from Kontakt...just to give you a head's up.

You are probably better off making your own sample banks in say,
Linuxsampler - where you are going to actually get decent performance
out of them, without glitchyness (this is also true of Battery3, i
would know as i own N.I. Komplete 7).

Well, I would like to have the best possible piano sound, and according
to most experts, that's Ivory II and Galaxy Pianos.
Ivory II sounds harder, because it has DRM (iLok), and I am trying
Galaxy Pianos first, which is powered by Kontakt.

Native instruments plugins can be dicey and mileage will vary! (with
WineASIO and/or Festige). it can be a little disappointing.

Well, I will see...

You will also either have to compile the latest wineASIO

By latest, you mean 0.9, or the SVN version?

with INT32, and change a wine registry setting to enable it (howto in readme i think),
otherwise N.I plugins just produce distortion. Alternatively, you can
use an older version of wineASIO, such as 0.7.5 .

I will check that out.

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

jordan · Post by **jordan** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:48 pm

I meant the SVN version of wineasio.

I could be wrong but, 0.9.0 is what you will be pulling from svn
anyway. WineASIO doesn't have a whole lot of active development.

Last release of wineasio (0.9) came out 10 month ago. Is it still compatible
with current wine?

all versions are compatible.

Well, I would like to have the best possible piano sound, and according to
most experts, that's Ivory II and Galaxy Pianos.
Ivory II sounds harder, because it has DRM (iLok), and I am trying Galaxy
Pianos first, which is powered by Kontakt.

Well, i hope it works out for you.

Native instruments plugins can be dicey and mileage will vary! (with
WineASIO and/or Festige). it can be a little disappointing.
Well, I will see...

That you will.

cheerz

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:39 am

I meant the SVN version of wineasio.
I could be wrong but, 0.9.0 is what you will be pulling from svn
anyway. WineASIO doesn't have a whole lot of active development.

After a quick check, I see that WineASIO development is done in GIT, not
in SVN.
There were 5 commits since 0.9.0, and judging from the comments, they
seem to be useful bugfixes / enhancements, so I went with the GIT version.

* * *

I decided to check the "Wine + WineASIO + Kontakt-Standalone-App"
direction first.

After installing latest WINE, WineASIO and Kontakt Player, Kontakt can
detect that I have ASIO (besides the DirectSound interface), but if I
select it, it says that the device is "Not present".

Do you have idea what do I need to do to actually run it?

(Jack was running when I started Kontakt, but no Jack clients appeared
in qjackctl when I started Kontakt.)

Furthermore, checking the docs and sources of WineASIO, it does not seem
to do anything about MIDI.

How can I get jack midi into wine?

* * *

I will check the "FST + Kontakt-VST-Pluigin" direction next.
It's closer to my real use case, so I hope I will have better luck with
this approach.

I will report back when I have something.

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

jordan · Post by **jordan** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:18 pm

Hey Kristof,

After a quick check, I see that WineASIO development is done in GIT, not in
SVN.
There were 5 commits since 0.9.0, and judging from the comments, they seem
to be useful bugfixes / enhancements, so I went with the GIT version.

not surprising that they use git. As for wineASIO - i currently use
0.7.5 ...used to use 0.9.0 but for my purposes, the older version
seems to be better. (and i only use it for 1 or 2 apps).

I decided to check the "Wine + WineASIO + Kontakt-Standalone-App" direction
first.

After installing latest WINE, WineASIO and Kontakt Player, Kontakt can
detect that I have ASIO (besides the DirectSound interface), but if I select
it, it says that the device is "Not present".

Do you have idea what do I need to do to actually run it?

I've run kontakt before, but not in a long while. it sounds like you
are close, but maybe forgot a step. did your register wineASIO with
the Wine registry?? if you are using a 64bit system (and OS), did you
1st specify your wine prefix as being win32 before registering
wineASIO?

What version of jack are you using?

(Jack was running when I started Kontakt, but no Jack clients appeared in
qjackctl when I started Kontakt.)

it won't appear in jack until the app is properly using ASIO.

Furthermore, checking the docs and sources of WineASIO, it does not seem to
do anything about MIDI.

WineASIO doesn't deal with midi - it routes audio streams to jack.
hence why no documentation on midi... Apps using WineASIO will
actually be using ALSA-midi NOT Jack-midi. You must specify what midi
ports you plan on using inside of your app, usually somewhere in the
VSTi's preferences/options.... ie: midi-keyboard for midi-in, or
possibly alsa-midithrough + setting the midi channel - depending on
what you are trying to do. Note: you should be able to use a2jmidid as
well, for alsa-midi to jack-midi bridge. - although, i haven't tried
this, as i don't require it for the apps i run with WineASIO.

How can I get jack midi into wine?

FST/Festige uses Jack-midi exclusively with wine/VSTs.

I will check the "FST + Kontakt-VST-Pluigin" direction next.
It's closer to my real use case, so I hope I will have better luck with this
approach.

I would also make sure that you have wineASIO properly installed, as
you may like to use it as well. for example, sometimes a VSTi may
crash (or be unstable) using FST, while with wineASIO it works
flawlessly (or vice-versa). there may be other times, when a VSTi
doesn't work with FST and does NOT have a standalone version (only a
.dll) ~ in this case, you might want to checkout SAVIhost or VSTHost,
as they provide a method of hosting a single-vst (SAVIhost) or
multiple (with VSThost). link;

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm

VSThost is also available there.

anyways, in a circumstance like my second example, you may want to
wrap the vst's .dll into an .exe (standalone app) - which will require
WineASIO to work.

thank you for your help.

No problem, running windows proaudio apps in wine +
jack-audio-connection-kit can be a bit confusing at first.

* I still have to say though, running a sampler-type VSTi through
wine, isn't necessarily the best idea. I can almost promise you are
going to have headache after headache. One problem is that when wine
apps are under heavy disk i/o - they tend to cause xruns in jack. ie:
Battery3, KontaKt, sampletank, etc - all tend to cause random nasty
bursts of xruns. *

That is why i suggested a native linux app for sampling. it works much
better, and the CPU usage will be nothing in comparison. Like i said,
i use LinuxSampler - because i can take .sfz and various other kinds
of samplebanks and convert them into .gig using a Windows app in wine,
to do so;

http://www.extranslator.com/

I purchased it (it's not-free) because i needed to migrate samples to
my AKAI-MPC2000xl, but now i use it mostly for converting formats to
linuxsampler ones. this includes many soundbanks that came with
Komplete 7 - including many kontakt banks, and battery3 kits.

there's also a great app for linux for ripping instruments (like
VSTi's) and it works with Jack. It's called Synthclone;

http://code.google.com/p/synthclone/

I've ripped a few vst's with it. very useful utility.

cheerz

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:24 pm

Hey Jordan,

I decided to check the "Wine + WineASIO + Kontakt-Standalone-App" direction
first.

After installing latest WINE, WineASIO and Kontakt Player, Kontakt can
detect that I have ASIO (besides the DirectSound interface), but if I select
it, it says that the device is "Not present".

Do you have idea what do I need to do to actually run it?
I've run kontakt before, but not in a long while. it sounds like you
are close, but maybe forgot a step. did your register wineASIO with
the Wine registry??

Yes.

if you are using a 64bit system (and OS),

(I am.)

did you 1st specify your wine prefix as being win32 before registering wineASIO?

Yes. (And I saw that it installed to the proper place.)

What version of jack are you using?

jack2, v1.9.7, from Debian Unstable.

Apps using WineASIO will actually be using ALSA-midi NOT Jack-midi.

And how do I configure ALSA midi for wine?

You must specify what midi ports you plan on using inside of your app, usually somewhere in the
VSTi's preferences/options.... ie: midi-keyboard for midi-in, or
possibly alsa-midithrough + setting the midi channel - depending on
what you are trying to do.

Kontakt listed no MIDI ports on the MIDI tab of settings.

Note: you should be able to use a2jmidid as
well, for alsa-midi to jack-midi bridge. - although, i haven't tried
this, as i don't require it for the apps i run with WineASIO.

I have tried a2jmidid before, and it worked; so if I can configure ALSA
midi input for WINE app, then it should be sufficient.

FST/Festige uses Jack-midi exclusively with wine/VSTs.

That sound promising. I am trying that next.

I would also make sure that you have wineASIO properly installed, as
you may like to use it as well. for example, sometimes a VSTi may
crash (or be unstable) using FST, while with wineASIO it works
flawlessly (or vice-versa). there may be other times, when a VSTi
doesn't work with FST and does NOT have a standalone version (only a
.dll) ~ in this case, you might want to checkout SAVIhost or VSTHost,
as they provide a method of hosting a single-vst (SAVIhost) or
multiple (with VSThost). link;

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm

VSThost is also available there.

anyways, in a circumstance like my second example, you may want to
wrap the vst's .dll into an .exe (standalone app) - which will require
WineASIO to work.

I have not (yet) given up in WineASIO; I will keep experimenting with it
later.

running windows proaudio apps in wine +
jack-audio-connection-kit can be a bit confusing at first.

Well, I have no problem with having to do a bit of experimenting ....
if it works in the end.

* I still have to say though, running a sampler-type VSTi through
wine, isn't necessarily the best idea. [...] I've ripped a few vst's with it. very useful utility.

I understand what you say, but i simply can't find a satisfactory native
Linux app for what I want to do. (Which is, authentic piano sound.)

A good piano synth engine is quite a bit more than a sampler; there are
many, many sophisticated interactions between the various notes, the
damper pedal, etc, etc... it's hard to get it right. It's not just a
matter of playing back samples. (Galaxy Pianos does this with
sophisticated Kontakt scripts.) The only app that comes close is
Pianoteq: it has a native Linux version, and can use JACK midi and
audio. I have successfully used it with my system (the demo version of
it, anyway), but the sound is just not satisfactory. (It is almost
completely modeled, uses very small sample set, smaller than 50M. Ivory
II is 40G (for 4 pianos); Galaxi Pianos are about 5G, per piano.)

* * *

So I would like to try to get Galaxy Pianos working first. Since I am
not going to do any commercial performances, a few xruns here and there
can be acceptable. (And I plan to improve the quality by adding RAM, so
that most samples can be cached.)

* * *

Can you suggest a simple windows application, the runs in wine, and I
can use it for testing my WineASIO installation, independently of Kontakt?

Thank you for your help:

Kristof

jordan · Post by **jordan** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:01 pm

And how do I configure ALSA midi for wine?

Well, alsa should be your driver for Wine, so you shouldn't need to
set anything up.

Kontakt listed no MIDI ports on the MIDI tab of settings.

hmmm, i would double-check that alsa is being used, there is a page in
the WineHQ Wiki on sound, that will describe where to look in the wine
registry.

maybe i'll install Kontakt here and have a look.

I have tried a2jmidid before, and it worked; so if I can configure ALSA midi
input for WINE app, then it should be sufficient.

should be. For midi, i just have my VSTi use my midi-keyboard using
alsa-midi. since it's at lower latencies it works perfectly.(while,
most vsti are using FST, aside from 2).

FST/Festige uses Jack-midi exclusively with wine/VSTs.
That sound promising. I am trying that next.

FST is pretty good. i use it for most things.

I have not (yet) given up in WineASIO; I will keep experimenting with it
later.

I'm sure you'll get it working. it's given me hassles before, too.

running windows proaudio apps in wine +
jack-audio-connection-kit can be a bit confusing at first.
Well, I have no problem with having to do a bit of experimenting .... if it
works in the end.

It can work very well.

I understand what you say, but i simply can't find a satisfactory native
Linux app for what I want to do. (Which is, authentic piano sound.)

A good piano synth engine is quite a bit more than a sampler; there are
many, many sophisticated interactions between the various notes, the damper
pedal, etc, etc... it's hard to get it right. It's not just a matter of
playing back samples. (Galaxy Pianos does this with sophisticated Kontakt
scripts.) The only app that comes close is Pianoteq: it has a native Linux
version, and can use JACK midi and audio. I have successfully used it with
my system (the demo version of it, anyway), but the sound is just not
satisfactory. (It is almost completely modeled, uses very small sample set,
smaller than 50M. Ivory II is 40G (for 4 pianos); Galaxi Pianos are about
5G, per piano.)

I don't really need you to explain to me the fundementals of sampling
or of modeling in general. I attended a music technology program, so
i'm well-aware. Have you considered that jack allows you the
flexibility to help accomplish what you are describing?? When i said
LinuxSampler for sampling, i meant JUST that - sampling. I myself am
using multi-gigabyte piano libraries (in linuxsampler), in combination
with modelling and reverb models. with a bit of creativity, and some
good libraries, you could probably get some pretty decent sounds, if
kontakt doesn't work out.

So I would like to try to get Galaxy Pianos working first. Since I am not
going to do any commercial performances, a few xruns here and there can be
acceptable. (And I plan to improve the quality by adding RAM, so that most
samples can be cached.)

I can't say how Galaxy will work, it may work well, it may not. the
xruns won't bother you if there is the odd one or two, but it will
bother you if they are bursts. it will depend a lot on your hardware,
as much as the software.

Can you suggest a simple windows application, the runs in wine, and I can
use it for testing my WineASIO installation, independently of Kontakt?

I've sort of already done that. i recommended SAVIhost. - it hosts a
single VST (.dll) - there are hundreds, if not thousands of free vsts
all over the internet. you can also google around to see what runs in
wine. Easiest way to figure that out, is to visit KVRaudio, search for
VSTs and select the option to only show VSTs that are 'known to work
with the Receptor' option. The Receptor uses wine/linux so it's likely
the vst will work, in this case..

download one, wrap it using savihost and try it out. But honestly a
lot of ASIO applications work.

cheerz

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:34 pm

Kontakt listed no MIDI ports on the MIDI tab of settings.

Well, for the record, that one is solved now: the alsa MIDI devices must
be present at the time Kontakt is started; if they are, they do show up
on the MIDI tab.
(However, devices created later will not be displayed.)

Kristof

Csillag Kristof · Post by **Csillag Kristof** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:55 pm

2011-12-14 21:17 keltezéssel, jordan írta:

make sure that you have wineASIO properly installed, as
you may like to use it as well. for example, sometimes a VSTi may
crash (or be unstable) using FST, while with wineASIO it works
flawlessly (or vice-versa). there may be other times, when a VSTi
doesn't work with FST and does NOT have a standalone version (only a
.dll) ~ in this case, you might want to checkout SAVIhost or VSTHost,
as they provide a method of hosting a single-vst (SAVIhost) or
multiple (with VSThost). link;

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm

VSThost is also available there.

I have tried SAVIhost and VSThost, and they look great, however, neither
of them detects my WineASIO installation.
(In the Devices dialog, all I get are the "MME" ports.)

So this is not a Kontakt-specific problem either; I guess my WineASIO
installation is dysfunctional.
I will look at this for some more time, and then try some older versions
of WineASIO.

Kristof

Peter L Jones · Post by **Peter L Jones** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:05 pm

Hi,

If you want ASIO support, you can use wineasio.

Regards,

-- Peter

On 12/12/2011 18:59, Csillag Kristof wrote:

Hi,

Could someone please explain me what is the current status of the jack audio
back-end?
(Both midi and audio.)

The feature to switch back-end seems to have disappeared from winecfg, and I
can't find anything useful in the docs either.

Thank you for your help:

Kristof