Eve and morals

[Nick_S]

Taboo subject, but a learning experience nonetheless?

I read about the source leak of the client. I don't play Eve anymore, but would it be morally wrong to use the source code to see what's going on and further Wine development using a current game as a reflecting post? Does this matter at all? I mean, are all Wine issues right now related to translations of DirectX code to OpenGL or just plain API inner workings? Would game source even help at this stage of Wine

[eps]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Nick_S <[email protected]> wrote:

Taboo subject, but a learning experience nonetheless?

I read about the source leak of the client. I don't play Eve anymore, but would it be morally wrong to use the source code to see what's going on and further Wine development using a current game as a reflecting post? Does this matter at all? I mean, are all Wine issues right now related to translations of DirectX code to OpenGL or just plain API inner workings? Would game source even help at this stage of Wine [Question]

It would also be illegal.

Please also note that if you download the source from any torrent
networks you will be banned.

[Nick_S]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Nick_S <[email protected]> wrote:
It would also be illegal.

Please also note that if you download the source from any torrent
networks you will be banned.

Would it also be illegal to read a book you didn't buy?

Make no qualms about it. The source code is out there. Try to sue those that copied it in the first place, but if someone were to get a hold of it and print it out (maybe even try to go after the person that printed it?) but if you were to read through the code and see what is going on, would it not offer help? That's my question. I really don't care right now about banning and/or legality of holding the code as I have no stake either way. I'm talking about looking at it, reading the code and learning from it.

If I take your stance on software legality the same as reading a book, you could go into any bookseller or library and arrest every person for copyright infringement.

[eps]

Would it also be illegal to read a book you didn't buy?

It is illegal to use some thing that is devised directly from seeing
this code in almost all countries. Period.

[Timeout]

The thing (or the difference) between a book and this case is that for a book the author is *expecting* it to be read.
However look at any teaching material, you are not allowed to copy or distribute it without having the author's permission.
Here the code of the software is the key to their work. It's like you have a friend copying keys that had been provided by the possessor to make double of them.
Would it be legal if that friend showed you how the key is made and that you later used this knowledge for other key maker in getting a genuine copy of the key without the original - just because your friend had let you look at it.
In end effect it's not important where the leak is coming from, maybe it had been rightfully disclosed for a purpose, but using this purpose to get to another one without the knowledge of the possessor may get you in trouble.
Like Apple - if a journalist come to release screenshots wherever they come before the software had been officially released, he will be sued and it's not going to help him to say he had not taken the screenshots himself.
Screenshots that are publicy available are another matter, like publicy available books and undisclosed book content.

[Nick_S]

Then it would be illegal to read a Diary, punishable by copyright laws?

[Mario Goebbels (Webmail)]

It is illegal to use some thing that is devised directly from seeing
this code in almost all countries. Period.

One way or another, it wouldn't help anyway. It's just the Python stuff

decompiled. Since there are actually meaningful variable names, I figure

that a volunteering bug hunter leaked a copy of the development build,

which likely has debugging symbols (or the equivalent in bytecode compiled

Python) enabled. There's no C/C++ code or anything, which makes up the

actual runtime of EVE.



-mg

[Timeout]

Yes, if you read the diary of xxxx and you made fun of it of the comments of this diary on the Internet saying where it is coming from, you could be sued from xxx (with enough pocket money).

Also discussing the source code of a specific software officially could help the competitors of this vendor in their own code.

It doesn't come to the fact that you read it, it comes to the fact that you want do use/disclose the knowledge out of this proprietary source even for improving wine.

If the vendors want it to run it on wine, then they should send themselves the code to Wine, clear the copyright issues with the Wine developers, make a nice 4-fold contract if needed and only then Wine could officially use it.

Edit: one more example:
There was once some school task to make with the help of a photograph some kind of Internet sale of old pictures. My sister went for it and used one of my baby pictures. If I were seeing on the Internet that you went to use support with this picture even if you bought it as under the photographer, I will sue you and you have your right to sue in return the photographer that didn't get the right to publish the photo even if he only used it under the hood a a school task.
When using content of other, you should know what you are doing and be prepared for the consequences.

[eps]

One way or another, it wouldn't help anyway. It's just the Python stuff

decompiled. Since there are actually meaningful variable names, I figure

that a volunteering bug hunter leaked a copy of the development build,

which likely has debugging symbols (or the equivalent in bytecode compiled

Python) enabled. There's no C/C++ code or anything, which makes up the

actual runtime of EVE.

Of course it wonldn't but that wasn't what he asked.

Also due to bad coding on CCPs side (client side injection has always
been possible) those doing such exploits now have a bible to follow.
If this becomes a big problem (and I read that it is already) it will
force alot of wasted time by CCP fixing their client side code and
repairing damage done to the game. While good in the long run for the
consumer the cost and effort from CCP (if this becomes a reality)
could easily lead them to file law suits to recover damages from
parties involved.

And it isn't like they haven't attacked their customer base more times
than anyone can remember.

[Nick_S]

One way or another, it wouldn't help anyway. It's just the Python stuff

decompiled. Since there are actually meaningful variable names, I figure

that a volunteering bug hunter leaked a copy of the development build,

which likely has debugging symbols (or the equivalent in bytecode compiled

Python) enabled. There's no C/C++ code or anything, which makes up the

actual runtime of EVE.

Of course it wonldn't but that wasn't what he asked.

Sure it was.

Does this matter at all? I mean, are all Wine issues right now related to translations of DirectX code to OpenGL or just plain API inner workings? Would game source even help at this stage of Wine

[bradley newton haug]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Edward Savage <[email protected]> wrote:

It would also be illegal.

Please also note that if you download the source from any torrent
networks you will be banned.

banned from teh innerweb?!!

oh noes!!

The 'source' code is decompiled python (used as client glue), not exactly
hard to do, or worth spending any time debating.

Anyone that wants to hack eve or bot it, just hooks into it, this helps
no one.. cept me.. the whole I HAVE YOUR UNDERPANTS chat transcript was
worth a few laughs.
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[James McKenzie]

Nick_S wrote:

Taboo subject, but a learning experience nonetheless?

I read about the source leak of the client.

If it did not come from the original authors then possession of the code
is illegal. Sorta of like what happened with some of the iD Games stuff
back in the mid-1900s. Yes, they did go after the folks who hacked the
code.

I don't play Eve anymore, but would it be morally wrong to use the source code to see what's going on and further Wine development using a current game as a reflecting post?

Morally, ethically and legally. The entire Wine project could come to a
screeching halt.

Does this matter at all?

Yes. Look at the DMCA and decide if you want to take the risks
involved. I would not want to put the entire project at risk, even in
the smallest amount.

I mean, are all Wine issues right now related to translations of DirectX code to OpenGL or just plain API inner workings?

No. Take a look at issue 6254 for an example. There are more like it.
Wine is not only for gamers, but some folks are using it for serious
production as well. However, fixing a problem, enhancing the code base
and all the rest has to be done in a 'clean room' environment. That
means if you have EVER looked at code, even hacked code, you cannot work
on Wine. This makes it hard to find folks that can do the tasks
mentioned, but it keeps ALL of us out of the courtroom and keeps Wine
viable.

Would game source even help at this stage of Wine [Question]

Legal source, yes. Hacked code, broken code and (gasp!) stolen code,
no. If there is any doubt as where the source came from, then we cannot
and should not use it with the Wine project. However, we can use all
sorts of legal tools to see how well Wine interacts with and responds to
any code that is out there. This has helped with .NET support and other
things. We also rely on what is written at several sites and some of
the information provided turned out to be completely incorrect,
resulting in many days wasted effort. We don't need to be working with
hacked/cracked/stolen code to make progress.

In this case, stay away from this code. It is not legal to possess and
might even end up getting you in serious trouble.

James McKenzie

[vitamin]

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WARNING: This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain legally

This e-mail was removed from the forum. Author drop this garbage before posting to a public forum/mailing list. None of those requirements can be nor will be met.

[Tom Evans]

On Tue, 2008-04-15 at 21:42 -0500, vitamin wrote:

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This e-mail was removed from the forum. Author drop this garbage before posting to a public forum/mailing list. None of those requirements can be nor will be met.

Nice way to stop someone from being able to contribute. Many companies
automatically add these sorts of footers as an SMTP hook, so you've
probably flaming the wrong person. Also, you could take posting such a
message to a public forum as giving explicit authorisation for public
use - certainly is in English Common Law.
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[Nick_S]

(snip)

Thank you for the well thought out answer instead of a knee jerk "NO! GET AWAY FROM ME WITH THAT!" post with no reasoning or elaboration.

[James McKenzie]

Nick_S wrote:

James McKenzie wrote:

(snip)

Thank you for the well thought out answer instead of a knee jerk "NO! GET AWAY FROM ME WITH THAT!" post with no reasoning or elaboration.

Nick:

I worked in industry where 'borrowing' code could end you up in lots of
trouble. First with the company's legal department, as you did not hold
title to the code and now they cannot legally release their product.
Second, with the legal department of whomever you 'borrowed' the code
from. Gets really aweful from this point. With Wine 'battling' a
rather large, legalistic company, we need to stay completely clean. And
I mean 'squeaky' clean. All of the code must be original code that does
not duplicate any of the code from that very large, legalistic company.
If we were to loosen our 'grip' in one area, it could spell doom to the
entire project. Thus we cannot use code from other like projects and we
certainly cannot use code that has unknown origins.
So, thank you for your kind comments. and no we cannot use the code that
the OP hinted at for this project, ever.

James McKenzie