How can we improve WNE?

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:59 am

Hello everybody.

I'm a (quite) happy WINE user, but i would like to propose some things to
the WINE developers.

Something important imo, is that it must be easy to use for the user, and
some things could be better, here are some ideas to improve it by using
Winecfg:

1. Add an option to disable/enable/edit debug channels for all programs. As
you may know, a lot of programs runs faster (especially games, can be +40%
faster), so having an easy way to do this thourgh Winecfg would be a nice
idea.

2. Be able to configure some registry kets through Winecfg, especially
OffscreenRenderingMode, UseGLSL and VideoMemorySize, why not put a button in
the Graphics tab that would show up an "Advanced condifuration" window?

3. When a program crashes, show up a window with the debugging information,
so you shouldn't always run the program in terminal. And if debugging is
disabled, say to the user it crashed, but he/she needs to enable debugging.

4. Optional imo and not very important imo: add some color schemes in
Winecfg, not themes, but some color variations. But that's really not needed
in my opinion.

I know a lot of people will respond and critic what i propose, but i really
think those little improvements (not really hard to code i presume?) could
make WINE better for users...

Please read this as an user point of view...

Thanks, kind regards.
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austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:49 am

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello everybody.

I'm a (quite) happy WINE user, but i would like to propose some things to
the WINE developers.

Something important imo, is that it must be easy to use for the user, and
some things could be better, here are some ideas to improve it by using
Winecfg:

1. Add an option to disable/enable/edit debug channels for all programs. As
you may know, a lot of programs runs faster (especially games, can be +40%
faster), so having an easy way to do this thourgh Winecfg would be a nice
idea.

Not a bad idea. The only problem is that if we then need debugging
information, it's all gone. I think a better solution would be to add
"WINEDEBUG=-all" when ran from a .desktop and not from terminal.

2. Be able to configure some registry kets through Winecfg, especially
OffscreenRenderingMode, UseGLSL and VideoMemorySize, why not put a button in
the Graphics tab that would show up an "Advanced condifuration" window?

I filed a bug for this, and started on making one, but it's a bit hard
to edit .rc files if you don't have visual studio...See
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14776.

3. When a program crashes, show up a window with the debugging information,
so you shouldn't always run the program in terminal. And if debugging is
disabled, say to the user it crashed, but he/she needs to enable debugging.

This has been proposed a few times before, mostly a Dr. Watson type
debugger. A simple window to tell the user the program crashed,
however, doesn't sound as familiar. I don't think, however, you'd find
much support for it, and hardly anyone would want to spend time coding
it. If you've got a patch, however, the odds are improved.

4. Optional imo and not very important imo: add some color schemes in
Winecfg, not themes, but some color variations. But that's really not needed
in my opinion.

That's been discussed, as the job of the distro to provide some
default matching schemes.

--
-Austin

Martin Gregorie · Post by **Martin Gregorie** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:03 am

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 10:49 -0500, Austin English wrote:

This has been proposed a few times before, mostly a Dr. Watson type
debugger. A simple window to tell the user the program crashed,
however, doesn't sound as familiar. I don't think, however, you'd find
much support for it, and hardly anyone would want to spend time coding
it. If you've got a patch, however, the odds are improved.

Austin,

Is there any profiling information about the costs of generating
debugging output?

By that I mean the relative costs of generating the debugging lines,
writing them to a file/displaying on a console.

If the cost of generating the lines is insignificant compared to normal
Wine non-debugged operation, then I have an suggestion of a way to
proceed. I also have tested ANSI C code that I've used in other
projects and which may be useful.

Martin

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:07 am

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Martin Gregorie <[email protected]> wrote:

On Fri, 2009-04-03 at 10:49 -0500, Austin English wrote:
This has been proposed a few times before, mostly a Dr. Watson type
debugger. A simple window to tell the user the program crashed,
however, doesn't sound as familiar. I don't think, however, you'd find
much support for it, and hardly anyone would want to spend time coding
it. If you've got a patch, however, the odds are improved.

Austin,

Is there any profiling information about the costs of generating
debugging output?

By that I mean the relative costs of generating the debugging lines,
writing them to a file/displaying on a console.

Not that I'm aware of. It varies a lot depending on the program/wine version.

If the cost of generating the lines is insignificant compared to normal
Wine non-debugged operation, then I have an suggestion of a way to
proceed. I also have Â tested ANSI C code that I've used in other
projects and which may Â be useful.

What exactly are you proposing?

--
-Austin

James Mckenzie · Post by **James Mckenzie** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:36 am

Austin English <[email protected]> wrote on April 3rd:

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello everybody.

I'm a (quite) happy WINE user, but i would like to propose some things to
the WINE developers.

4. Optional imo and not very important imo: add some color schemes in
Winecfg, not themes, but some color variations. But that's really not needed
in my opinion.
That's been discussed, as the job of the distro to provide some
default matching schemes.

It is time to remind folks that Wine is used on more than Linux. For instance, it would be real nice to have a color scheme that matches that of the MacOSX Aqua interface and that this color scheme be selectiable. This may already be available as I am not up to date on the progress of the theming project.

James McKenzie

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:42 am

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 11:35 AM, James Mckenzie
<[email protected]> wrote:

Austin English <[email protected]> wrote on April 3rd:
On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello everybody.

I'm a (quite) happy WINE user, but i would like to propose some things to
the WINE developers.

4. Optional imo and not very important imo: add some color schemes in
Winecfg, not themes, but some color variations. But that's really not needed
in my opinion.
That's been discussed, as the job of the distro to provide some
default matching schemes.
It is time to remind folks that Wine is used on more than Linux. Â For instance, it would be real nice to have a color scheme that matches that of the MacOSX Aqua interface and that this color scheme be selectiable. Â This may already be available as I am not up to date on the progress of the theming project.

I'm very well aware of this fact. But in the case of the Mac, Darwine
would be the one responsible for that. WineHQ only provides source
code, not any binaries. What WineHQ provides works on Linux, OS X,
Solaris, FreeBSD, NetBSD...

--
-Austin

fcmartins · Post by **fcmartins** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:01 pm

Warren Dumortier wrote: Please read this as an user point of view...

I also would like to see those improvements. I posted some other remarks on a related thread before seeing this one.

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:04 pm

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

1. Add an option to disable/enable/edit debug channels for all programs. As
you may know, a lot of programs runs faster (especially games, can be +40%
faster), so having an easy way to do this thourgh Winecfg would be a nice
idea.

I've sent a patch to disable output for .desktop shortcuts, where the
output is never seen anyway. If you're running apps from a terminal,
or don't want to wait for the patch/it's rejected, just add:
export WINEDEBUG="-all" to your .bashrc/.cshrc/shell configuation file.

--
-Austin

Thunderbird · Post by **Thunderbird** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:19 pm

Just some short answers to your first two questions.
1) Debug messages can be compiled out if you want using a configure script option.
2) We explicitly don't have the d3d options you mentioned in winecfg as we want to get rid of the options or discourage users to use them as you need to know what you are doing. We want to default to FBOs (OffscreenRenderingMethod) once some remaining issues are gone, we also like to get rid of RenderTargetLockMode, we want to autodetect the amount of videoram and so on.

Roderick

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:31 pm

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Thunderbird <[email protected]> wrote:

2) We explicitly don't have the d3d options you mentioned in winecfg as we want to get rid of the options or discourage users to use them as you need to know what you are doing. We want to default to FBOs (OffscreenRenderingMethod) once some remaining issues are gone, we also like to get rid of RenderTargetLockMode, we want to autodetect the amount of videoram and so on.

By that same logic, we should not allow native overrides in winecfg,
as we want users to use builtin dlls.

--
-Austin

Thunderbird · Post by **Thunderbird** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:41 pm

We are getting closer and closer to get rid of these options. A lot of guides tell people to use them (sure FBOs need to be set most of the time) but most of the others are barely needed and can make things a lot of worse. They should be used with great care and it aren't just options to tweak performance or so which users expect.

austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:46 pm

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Thunderbird <[email protected]> wrote:

We are getting closer and closer to get rid of these options. A lot of guides tell people to use them (sure FBOs need to be set most of the time) but most of the others are barely needed and can make things a lot of worse. They should be used with great care and it aren't just options to tweak performance or so which users expect.

I'm not trying to belittle your work by any means. I'm simply pointing
out that while we're close to not needing those options at all, many
users currently do.

--
-Austin

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:33 pm

Hi all!

I see most of you discuss about the debugging window, but please consider
the other improvements are important!

First of all, Austen made a nice proposal to use WINEDEBUG=-all for normal
launchers, can WINE be patched for that? This can only have positive
consequences, debug is not needed when launched with from a .desktop! Can
someone please make a patch for that (menubuilder?). The community would
like that i think!

Concerning the advanced graphics options, please implement that, i had a
discussion some time ago and they all agreed that it wouldn't be a bad
idea...

I know that the best way to see this implemented in WINE is to patch it
yourself and send a patch, but i lack skills to do that. The WINE source is
quite complicated for newcomers...

Also, IMO these two things would be nice for WINE 1.2!

Kind regards, Warren.

2009/4/3 Austin English <[email protected]>

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Thunderbird <[email protected]>
wrote:
We are getting closer and closer to get rid of these options. A lot of
guides tell people to use them (sure FBOs need to be set most of the time)
but most of the others are barely needed and can make things a lot of worse.
They should be used with great care and it aren't just options to tweak
performance or so which users expect.

I'm not trying to belittle your work by any means. I'm simply pointing
out that while we're close to not needing those options at all, many
users currently do.

--
-Austin

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austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:46 pm

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi all!

I see most of you discuss about the debugging window, but please consider
the other improvements are important!

First of all, Austen made a nice proposal to use WINEDEBUG=-all for normal
launchers, can WINE be patched for that? This can only have positive
consequences, debug is not needed when launched with from a .desktop! Can
someone please make a patch for that (menubuilder?). The community would
like that i think!

I've already sent a patch. It won't be applied until Monday at the
earliest. It's currently being discussed on wine-devel.

Concerning the advanced graphics options, please implement that, i had a
discussion some time ago and they all agreed that it wouldn't be a bad
idea...

Wine's D3D/graphics developers don't like the idea, so it seems
unlikely. If you can make a patch for it, you may have a better chance
(mostly just .rc file editing).

--
-Austin

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:55 pm

Nice, hope it will get included!

Why not an advanced options button and warn them fbo is not stable for
example?

2009/4/4 Austin English <[email protected]>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi all!

I see most of you discuss about the debugging window, but please consider
the other improvements are important!

First of all, Austen made a nice proposal to use WINEDEBUG=-all for
normal
launchers, can WINE be patched for that? This can only have positive
consequences, debug is not needed when launched with from a .desktop! Can
someone please make a patch for that (menubuilder?). The community would
like that i think!
I've already sent a patch. It won't be applied until Monday at the
earliest. It's currently being discussed on wine-devel.

Concerning the advanced graphics options, please implement that, i had a
discussion some time ago and they all agreed that it wouldn't be a bad
idea...
Wine's D3D/graphics developers don't like the idea, so it seems
unlikely. If you can make a patch for it, you may have a better chance
(mostly just .rc file editing).

--
-Austin

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austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:14 pm

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

Nice, hope it will get included!

Why not an advanced options button and warn them fbo is not stable for
example?

No one's written the patch, so it's vaporware until then.

--
-Austin

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:42 pm

I presume writing a patch for that is quite easy, as i would like to learn
Wine's working, i will maybe write a patch...

2009/4/4 Austin English <[email protected]>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]>
wrote:
Nice, hope it will get included!

Why not an advanced options button and warn them fbo is not stable for
example?

No one's written the patch, so it's vaporware until then.

--
-Austin

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austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:47 pm

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

I presume writing a patch for that is quite easy, as i would like to learn
Wine's working, i will maybe write a patch...

Should be mostly rc file editing...

--
-Austin

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:03 am

Tried to make a patch, but i have some questions.

Here's what i would do:
Create a new groupbox named "Advances Direct3D Settings" and put things
there + add a label to warn these settings can make wine unstable. Bad idea?

I first said adding a button would be enough, but i do not where a button
would fit in the current interface.

Actually Wine compiles, but gui items are not created in the rc files, where
are tey exactly created? Sorry, find it strange...

2009/4/5 Austin English <[email protected]>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]>
wrote:
I presume writing a patch for that is quite easy, as i would like to
learn
Wine's working, i will maybe write a patch...
Should be mostly rc file editing...

--
-Austin

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loltsy · Post by **loltsy** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:36 am

Warren Dumortier wrote:Tried to make a patch, but i have some questions.

Actually Wine compiles, but gui items are not created in the rc files, where
are tey exactly created? Sorry, find it strange...

I copypasted together something some days ago and it works for me. I must warn anyone who decides to use it I have no real idea of what I'm doing here and if it sets your hamster on fire that's your fault.

I also suspect it will totally destroy all the localizations except the English default but in either case it should give you an idea of how to add stuff the way you want.

http://www.kotinet.com/jukka.tastula/wi ... er.diff.gz

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:31 am

Thanks, i can use that a base to make a new patch!

2009/4/5 loltsy <[email protected]>

Warren Dumortier wrote:
Tried to make a patch, but i have some questions.

Actually Wine compiles, but gui items are not created in the rc files,
where
are tey exactly created? Sorry, find it strange...
I copypasted together something some days ago and it works for me. I must
warn anyone who decides to use it I have no real idea of what I'm doing here
and if it sets your hamster on fire that's your fault.

I also suspect it will totally destroy all the localizations except the
English default but in either case it should give you an idea of how to add
stuff the way you want.

http://www.kotinet.com/jukka.tastula/wi ... er.diff.gz

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Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:41 am

I just saw the patch works with current version, why isn't it accepted?
Proable because of the problem that it might break things do not know what
they do?
Will it be accepted if i put the new options in a separate window?

2009/4/5 Warren Dumortier <[email protected]>

Thanks, i can use that a base to make a new patch!

2009/4/5 loltsy <[email protected]>

Warren Dumortier wrote:
Tried to make a patch, but i have some questions.

Actually Wine compiles, but gui items are not created in the rc files,
where
are tey exactly created? Sorry, find it strange...
I copypasted together something some days ago and it works for me. I must
warn anyone who decides to use it I have no real idea of what I'm doing here
and if it sets your hamster on fire that's your fault.

I also suspect it will totally destroy all the localizations except the
English default but in either case it should give you an idea of how to add
stuff the way you want.

http://www.kotinet.com/jukka.tastula/wi ... er.diff.gz

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austin987 · Post by **austin987** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:55 pm

On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Warren Dumortier <[email protected]> wrote:

I just saw the patch works with current version, why isn't it accepted?

It was never submitted.

Proable because of the problem that it might break things do not know what
they do?
Will it be accepted if i put the new options in a separate window?

Perhaps, AJ would be the one to ask.

--
-Austin

sotel · Post by **sotel** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:13 pm

Warren Dumortier wrote:1. Add an option to disable/enable/edit debug channels for all programs. As you may know, a lot of programs runs faster (especially games, can be +40% faster), so having an easy way to do this thourgh Winecfg would be a nice
idea.

Hy! I think this is more a task for the package-managers: I work with wine on debian and in the debian-package-management I can choose between a normal package and a debugging package.
So if you take this item the wine packages will look like this:

wine
wine-dbg
wine-dev

where wine is the package without debugging-infos and wine-dbg including the debugging code.

(OK - is not really the same but take this like an example.)

Yours sincerely
Joerg

Warren Dumortier · Post by **Warren Dumortier** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:17 pm

Not the same problem, you mean wine is compiled in debugging mode (-dbg
vcontains the symbols), we're talking about the wine output to debug
programs ran using Wine!

2009/4/5 sotel <[email protected]>

Warren Dumortier wrote:
1. Add an option to disable/enable/edit debug channels for all programs.
As you may know, a lot of programs runs faster (especially games, can be
+40% faster), so having an easy way to do this thourgh Winecfg would be a
nice
idea.
Hy! I think this is more a task for the package-managers: I work with wine
on debian and in the debian-package-management I can choose between a normal
package and a debugging package.
So if you take this item the wine packages will look like this:

wine
wine-dbg
wine-dev

where wine is the package without debugging-infos and wine-dbg including
the debugging code.

(OK - is not really the same but take this like an example.)

Cheers!

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