Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Questions about Wine on macOS.
stopsopa
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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by stopsopa » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:02 pm

Ha ha so true.
I've been using Wine to have HeidiSQL on Mac and since Catalina was updated it's gone, and it look like it's gone for good.
And Wine main develper got himself killed - just freaking great.

starparrot
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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by starparrot » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:34 pm

Gcenx wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:24 am
If the application is really 64Bit then it’s possible to run it using wine64 on macOS Catalina but you will still need to provide 64Bit versions of libfreetype.6.dylib and libpng15.15.dylib for wine64 to function.
Would it be possible for Wine to put together a 64 bit .pkg with all this in? Then it could install easily on macOS Catalina and run 64 bit apps.

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DarkShadow44
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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by DarkShadow44 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:45 am

stopsopa wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:02 pm
And Wine main develper got himself killed - just freaking great.
What are you talking about?

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:45 am

DarkShadow44 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:45 am
What are you talking about?
I’m assuming they mean Józef Kucia.
starparrot wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:34 pm
Would it be possible for Wine to put together a 64 bit .pkg with all this in? Then it could install easily on macOS Catalina and run 64 bit apps.
It’s possible but I don’t see the packing system getting updated until wine32on64 patches hit upstream

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by starparrot » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:39 pm

Gcenx wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:45 am
It’s possible but I don’t see the packing system getting updated until wine32on64 patches hit upstream
When do you think that will be? Thanks.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:24 am

starparrot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:39 pm
When do you think that will be? Thanks.
No clue, I do know the ELF to PE transition is required.

It then depends if CodeWeavers really want to require a custom compiler, or change how wine32on64 works so a custom compiler isn’t required (will take longer but be cleaner)

As I don’t work for CodeWeavers I don’t know exactly what will happen, I wanted to attend Wineconf from this year but my current financial situation made that impossible.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by beyondashadow » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:06 am

rjhancock wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:25 am
As stated by Gcenx on Nov 8, 5.0 is expected Jan 2020 with 6.0 expected Jan 2021.
The wait is on. :roll:

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:08 am

beyondashadow wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:06 am
rjhancock wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:25 am
As stated by Gcenx on Nov 8, 5.0 is expected Jan 2020 with 6.0 expected Jan 2021.
The wait is on. :roll:

Everyone had three choices regarding wine on macOS;
- downgrade back to macOS Mojave
- purchase CrossOver 19
- build CrossOver19’s wine from source

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Maximara » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:01 am

stopsopa wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:02 pm
Ha ha so true.
I've been using Wine to have HeidiSQL on Mac and since Catalina was updated it's gone, and it look like it's gone for good.
And Wine main develper got himself killed - just freaking great.
Gads I've been living in a cave. How'd Wine's main developer get himself killed?
Gcenx wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:08 am
beyondashadow wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:06 am
rjhancock wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:25 am
As stated by Gcenx on Nov 8, 5.0 is expected Jan 2020 with 6.0 expected Jan 2021.
The wait is on. :roll:

Everyone had three choices regarding wine on macOS;
- downgrade back to macOS Mojave
- purchase CrossOver 19
- build CrossOver19’s wine from source
As mentioned several times the CrossOver 19 "fix" is a kludge not a true fix. It is beginning to look like that the only way to properly get wine to work under Catalina is to use a VM (VirtualBox for the free crowd) of some real bare bones Linux OS like PuppyOS, ArchBang (which IMHO needs a better name as this has a Rule 34 vibe :-)), or Porteus, Yeh it is emulation running on emulation but given you are emulating an OS that could, figuratively, run on a freaking toaster it shouldn't be that much of a hit.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:54 am

Maximara wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:01 am
As mentioned several times the CrossOver 19 "fix" is a kludge not a true fix. It is beginning to look like that the only way to properly get wine to work under Catalina is to use a VM (VirtualBox for the free crowd) of some real bare bones Linux OS like PuppyOS, ArchBang (which IMHO needs a better name as this has a Rule 34 vibe :-)), or Porteus, Yeh it is emulation running on emulation but given you are emulating an OS that could, figuratively, run on a freaking toaster it shouldn't be that much of a hit.
I guess you also didn’t check the previous posts, I’m more aware of how CodeWeavers solution worked before it was released, I’d even provided a link to the custom llvm/clang before CrossOver19.

Yes it’s basically considered a hack in its current state but it’s functional, it can even be used on Linux. The reason it’s considered a hack is due to the requirement of the custom llvm/clang used to generate the majority of the needed code to get it functional.

Now onto VirtualBox, forget that unless they have now added a Metal backend instead of OpenGL leaving it only supporting DirectX9 and below and running slow.

Gaming it would be better just using bootcamp with a Windows 10 being left unactivated.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Maximara » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:40 pm

Gcenx wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:54 am
Now onto VirtualBox, forget that unless they have now added a Metal backend instead of OpenGL leaving it only supporting DirectX9 and below and running slow.
Here is a wish list from Oct 29, 2016 regarding VirtualBox:

Performance optimization, using the latest instruction sets. Wayland support. Improved 3D drivers with full Vulkan support and maybe DirectX via Gallium3D. Fully open source drivers for all common hardware, so no more need for the extension pack. Update to Python 3"

OpenGL ES versus Vulkan, who is the performance king? (https://www.androidauthority.com/opengl ... ce-706408/) answer: Vulkan.
Gcenx wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:54 am
Gaming it would be better just using bootcamp with a Windows 10 being left unactivated.
How well does Windows 10 run all those Windows 95/98/ME games that see to infest the local Walmart? :-)

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 am

Maximara wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:40 pm
Here is a wish list from Oct 29, 2016 regarding VirtualBox:

Performance optimization, using the latest instruction sets. Wayland support. Improved 3D drivers with full Vulkan support and maybe DirectX via Gallium3D. Fully open source drivers for all common hardware, so no more need for the extension pack. Update to Python 3"

OpenGL ES versus Vulkan, who is the performance king? (https://www.androidauthority.com/opengl ... ce-706408/) answer: Vulkan.
Do the Linux builds now support Vulkan?
Also we’re talking about macOS here and I don’t see Metal/MoltenVk being used for VirtualBox.
I do see complaints on the forms of VirtualBox being slow on macOS Catalina, might try that myself tomorrow.
Maximara wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:40 pm
How well does Windows 10 run all those Windows 95/98/ME games that see to infest the local Walmart? :-)
I’ve managed to play all my old 95 era games on Windows 10, some required tweaks some worked out of box.


For the moment I haven’t moved over to macOS Catalina full time, just booting it from a USB SSD to test things when required.
CodeWeavers wine32on64 is running well enough to run all my older games lol.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Maximara » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:37 am

Gcenx wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:56 am
Do the Linux builds now support Vulkan?
Also we’re talking about macOS here and I don’t see Metal/MoltenVk being used for VirtualBox.
I do see complaints on the forms of VirtualBox being slow on macOS Catalina, might try that myself tomorrow.
Well there is a test bed for Linux versions of Vulkan
https://linuxconfig.org/install-and-tes ... n-on-linux

Also given the laying that goes on in VM wouldn't the OS it be what would have to worry about MoltenVk? Thought that would likely be slow as all get out.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:16 pm

Maximara wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:37 am
Well there is a test bed for Linux versions of Vulkan
https://linuxconfig.org/install-and-tes ... n-on-linux

Also given the laying that goes on in VM wouldn't the OS it be what would have to worry about MoltenVk? Thought that would likely be slow as all get out.
No it really will be VirtualBoxs problem if they move to Vulkan and plan to use MoltenVK they need to ensure they don’t use unsupported Vulkan extensions on macOS or help implement those extensions.

And no Vulkan doesn’t run slow via MoltenVK it’s running fast even on my Mid 2014 13in MacBook Pro. A few native ports are using MoltenVK over Metal and running nicely.

Also Parallels Desktop is running DirectX11 games with good performance using Metal as the backend the stuttering that’s been experienced is similar to using DXVK via Vulkan on Linux.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by The_SamminAter » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:10 pm

Gcenx wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:08 am
beyondashadow wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:06 am
rjhancock wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:25 am
As stated by Gcenx on Nov 8, 5.0 is expected Jan 2020 with 6.0 expected Jan 2021.
The wait is on. :roll:

Everyone had three choices regarding wine on macOS;
- downgrade back to macOS Mojave
- purchase CrossOver 19
- build CrossOver19’s wine from source
Is there any guide/relatively simple way that I (and others) could build CrossOver19’s wine from source?

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:07 pm

The_SamminAter wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:10 pm
Is there any guide/relatively simple way that I (and others) could build CrossOver19’s wine from source?
There are no guides for building CrossOver19s wine from source.

I’d reached out to Ken from CodeWeavers in regards to some build errors that only occurred when building wine32on64 with my usual dependencies that didn’t happen with a minimal subset.

If you check the winehq mailing list you will find DarkShadow also asked Ken for some information on wine32on64.
Ken mentioned what features they needed to disable when building CrossOver19 with there minimal dependencies used for CrossOver19.

There is no simple guide to follow as you need to compile the custom llvm/clang that’s included within CrossOver19s source.
You then also need the usual wine build/runtime dependencies, for macOS you could refer to my macports-wine-devel Portfiles for what to install.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by dj10024 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:35 am

Here is one for you - why not just run a supported distro image out of docker container and Wine from in there?

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:08 am

dj10024 wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:35 am
Here is one for you - why not just run a supported distro image out of docker container and Wine from in there?
You should go and try that and post your experience with performance etc when running wine via docker on macOS.

I’ll save you the effort by providing this link wine-docker

After trying that you will understand why it’s not a viable option and why CodeWeavers worked on wine32on64 instead

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by bgwallace » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:50 am

Team... for my own understanding, is it safe to say that Wine without CrossOver won't support macOS Catalina 10.15 anytime in the near future?

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:02 am

bgwallace wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:50 am
Team... for my own understanding, is it safe to say that Wine without CrossOver won't support macOS Catalina 10.15 anytime in the near future?
Not for the moment Wine-5.0 just got released, next is CrossOver-20 based on Wine-5.0. (This was mentioned in the CrossOver-19.0.1 release email)

After that we’ll lightly see something, it’s looking more lightly to be its own branch like staging until the custom llvm/clang is no longer required.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by bgwallace » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:34 pm

Thanks for the very helpful response Gcenx. If past release trends hold true, it looks it may be about a year before we'll see CrossOver-20.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:21 pm

bgwallace wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:34 pm
Thanks for the very helpful response Gcenx. If past release trends hold true, it looks it may be about a year before we'll see CrossOver-20.
No it won’t be a year it should be much faster as a lot of the work is already one the ELF to PE changes help wine32on64 process as less items should need trunking.

The wine32on64 patches need to me adjusted to Wine-5.0 then there own internal “hacks” used within CrossOver will be added, after this they might try getting other items fixed within wine32on64 like MoltenVK.

Once they announce a beta I’ll be asking for all items using FAudio to be changed over to PE format that will resolve a lot of the audio bugs we’ve experienced in recent tests.

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by starparrot » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:14 am

Gcenx wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:24 am
starparrot wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:39 pm
When do you think that will be? Thanks.
No clue, I do know the ELF to PE transition is required.

It then depends if CodeWeavers really want to require a custom compiler, or change how wine32on64 works so a custom compiler isn’t required (will take longer but be cleaner)

As I don’t work for CodeWeavers I don’t know exactly what will happen, I wanted to attend Wineconf from this year but my current financial situation made that impossible.
Any thoughts or updates on this at all Gcenx? Thank you!

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by Gcenx » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:47 am

starparrot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:14 am
Any thoughts or updates on this at all Gcenx? Thank you!
As Wine-5.0 is out now CodeWeavers will be working on CrossOver-20, not sure on a timeframe as there are a lot of patches involved.

Items that just contain 32on64 are 48 items, and 74 containing _i386_on_x86_64_
That’s just with a quick look over CrossOver19.0.1 source, some of those might not be required anymore or need rebasing.

We won’t see a wine32on64 releases/branch until after CrossOver-20 product is released unless CodeWeavers change there mind.

For now I’ve had decent success with my WineCX19.0.1 builds on Catalina

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Re: Catalina and the future of Wine on Mac

Post by starparrot » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:36 pm

Gcenx wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:47 am
starparrot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:14 am
Any thoughts or updates on this at all Gcenx? Thank you!
As Wine-5.0 is out now CodeWeavers will be working on CrossOver-20, not sure on a timeframe as there are a lot of patches involved.

Items that just contain 32on64 are 48 items, and 74 containing _i386_on_x86_64_
That’s just with a quick look over CrossOver19.0.1 source, some of those might not be required anymore or need rebasing.

We won’t see a wine32on64 releases/branch until after CrossOver-20 product is released unless CodeWeavers change there mind.

For now I’ve had decent success with my WineCX19.0.1 builds on Catalina
This sounds like a few months months work - just to get a Wine 64 bit .pkg to run 64 bit Windows apps?

Thanks for your help.

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