Legal Issues
Legal Issues
I heard that Wine uses Windows apps like Notepad, Wordpad, Regedit, etc... Is this legal? I mean, aren't these owned by Microsoft, making them proprietary??? Thanks.
Legal Issues
On 2009-12-18 (December, Friday) 06:25:06 army_ant7 wrote:
replaced with LGPL-licensed open-source equivalents. Of course, there is a lot
of difference internally (because whole Wine including Wordpad, Notepad, etc.
was written from scratch) but to the "end-user" these programs may look similar
(however even from end-user point of view there are differences between Wine and
Windows versions of Wordpad, Notepad and other standard programs).
Wrong. Wine does not include *Windows* Notepad, etc. Instead, all of these areI heard that Wine uses Windows apps like Notepad, Wordpad, Regedit, etc...
replaced with LGPL-licensed open-source equivalents. Of course, there is a lot
of difference internally (because whole Wine including Wordpad, Notepad, etc.
was written from scratch) but to the "end-user" these programs may look similar
(however even from end-user point of view there are differences between Wine and
Windows versions of Wordpad, Notepad and other standard programs).
Yes.Is this legal?
Depends on the application in wine. Some are just sourced clones.
Its not like MS is the only one to make a notepad application.
Some of the applications are not 100 percent complete either. Like iexplore in wine it don't even have toolbar. Basically its only providing what applications have required.
So equivalents is not exactly the right word. Enough so applications work.
Its not like MS is the only one to make a notepad application.
Some of the applications are not 100 percent complete either. Like iexplore in wine it don't even have toolbar. Basically its only providing what applications have required.
So equivalents is not exactly the right word. Enough so applications work.
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James McKenzie
Legal Issues
oiaohm wrote:
there are functions that are missing, but it provides enough
functionality to do testing with. However, some of the shortcomings are
becoming obvious through richedit function testing.
James McKenzie
Wordpad is a clean room clone of the Windows Wordpad application. Yes,Depends on the application in wine. Some are just sourced clones.
Its not like MS is the only one to make a notepad application.
Some of the applications are not 100 percent complete either. Like iexplore in wine it don't even have toolbar. Basically its only providing what applications have required.
So equivalents is not exactly the right word. Enough so applications work.
there are functions that are missing, but it provides enough
functionality to do testing with. However, some of the shortcomings are
becoming obvious through richedit function testing.
James McKenzie
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Danila Sentiabov
Legal Issues
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 14:53, army_ant7 <[email protected]> wrote:
development process of these applications.
Functionality is cloned, though.
--
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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No Microsoft's source code nor reverse-engineering is used in theAre "sourced clones" and "clean room clones" synonymous?
development process of these applications.
Functionality is cloned, though.
--
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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Sourced clones is finding a program else where under the right license performing the same tasks. Normally not like clean room clones.
Think all the versions of tetris that are out there. Lot were created by people have to code a tetris like program for exams and the like. Some if the simple programs like notepad in windows was also used as something to replicate in exams.
No disassembling or test casing is normally used in the production of sourced clones.
clean room clones. Is suggesting reverse-engineering ie someone disassembles and documents and someone else build clone of program from documentation.
Clone don't automatically mean that any reversing was done.
Functionality cloning can be done from something as primitive as screen shots of the application being cloned.
Lot has to be talked about on a per application base. You can be sure the methods used are legal.
Think all the versions of tetris that are out there. Lot were created by people have to code a tetris like program for exams and the like. Some if the simple programs like notepad in windows was also used as something to replicate in exams.
No disassembling or test casing is normally used in the production of sourced clones.
clean room clones. Is suggesting reverse-engineering ie someone disassembles and documents and someone else build clone of program from documentation.
Clone don't automatically mean that any reversing was done.
Functionality cloning can be done from something as primitive as screen shots of the application being cloned.
Lot has to be talked about on a per application base. You can be sure the methods used are legal.
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David Gerard
Legal Issues
2009/12/20 oiaohm <[email protected]>:
These days, a lot of it is noticing that an application works in
Windows but not in Wine, finding what function isn't working, then
writing a very specific test that shows Windows doing something Wine
doesn't. Then code is added to Wine to pass the test.
- d.
Yes, Wine is *extremely* careful about this.Lot has to be talked about on a per application base. Â You can be sure the methods used are legal.
These days, a lot of it is noticing that an application works in
Windows but not in Wine, finding what function isn't working, then
writing a very specific test that shows Windows doing something Wine
doesn't. Then code is added to Wine to pass the test.
- d.
From Scratch
These new codes are made from scratch though? Also, have you guys heard of any applications at all that prohibit you, as in "terms and agreements prohibited," from using them on Wine? Thanks.
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hacking4food
Legal Issues
I am not aware of any specific programs with that clause (although some specifically disallow use on anything but windows), but software EULAs are unlikely to hold up in court; they are not usually seen as equal to contracts.
------Original Message------
From: army_ant7
Sender: [email protected]
To: WineUsers
ReplyTo: WineUsers
Subject: [Wine] Re: Legal Issues
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 8:36 PM
These new codes are made from scratch though? Also, have you guys heard of any applications at all that prohibit you, as in "terms and agreements prohibited," from using them on Wine? Thanks.
]
------Original Message------
From: army_ant7
Sender: [email protected]
To: WineUsers
ReplyTo: WineUsers
Subject: [Wine] Re: Legal Issues
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 8:36 PM
These new codes are made from scratch though? Also, have you guys heard of any applications at all that prohibit you, as in "terms and agreements prohibited," from using them on Wine? Thanks.
]
But still...
Why would they even put that on the EULA? I mean, did Windows pay them to do that? But still, it would be wrong not to follow their terms. Hahaha... Is there a specific part of the EULA's that states this? Like a certain section?
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hacking4food
Legal Issues
It was somewhere on the EULA for Microsoft programs (Office for Windows, Internet Explorer, etc.); it's been a few years since I've looked but I don't believe any non-microsoft software states this.
------Original Message------
From: army_ant7
Sender: [email protected]
To: WineUsers
ReplyTo: WineUsers
Subject: [Wine] Re: Legal Issues
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 8:53 PM
Why would they even put that on the EULA? I mean, did Windows pay them to do that? But still, it would be wrong not to follow their terms. Hahaha... Is there a specific part of the EULA's that states this? Like a certain section?
]
------Original Message------
From: army_ant7
Sender: [email protected]
To: WineUsers
ReplyTo: WineUsers
Subject: [Wine] Re: Legal Issues
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 8:53 PM
Why would they even put that on the EULA? I mean, did Windows pay them to do that? But still, it would be wrong not to follow their terms. Hahaha... Is there a specific part of the EULA's that states this? Like a certain section?
]
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James Mckenzie
Legal Issues
[email protected] wrote:
EULAs have been found to be enforceable under U.S. law, but there yet has to be a 'test case' where this has been run through to SCOTUS. However, prior cases have been 'settled out of court'. This means that the people in the case decided not to pursue the issue.
This is different in the E.U. where the Court has found the EULA too restrictive and struck down the requirement to run software on Windows (or any other OS for that matter) being unenforceable.
Other areas of the world have different opinions. However, before installing software onto your computer, read the EULA and be prepared for the worst.
As an instance of this, in order to use Microsoft's fonts, you have to be in possession of a Microsoft License. I have one, with the software package and under the MSDN, so I'm ok. However, if you wipe your hard drive, which had the restoration on it, and are not in physical possession of a copy of Windows (you could even have a uninstallable copy of Windows98SE) then you are technically in violation of the EULA. Will Microsoft come after you? Probably not, but then again, they have been known to do strange things.
The bottom line is that you can do whatever you want, but you have to be ready to face the consequences. Consulting legal people before you do something, like install Office 2007 for your entire company, is always a good thing considering the financial problems you can encounter.
And as always, you mileage may vary based upon the terrian you live in (in other words, all of the above may not apply depending on where you live and your computer's ability to run the software in the first place.)
Very respectfully,
James McKenzie
Windows 7 does have this in the EULA as well as some other Windows programs.------Original Message------
From: army_ant7
Sender: [email protected]
To: WineUsers
ReplyTo: WineUsers
Subject: [Wine] Re: Legal Issues
Sent: Dec 20, 2009 8:36 PM
I am not aware of any specific programs with that clause (although some specifically disallow use on anythingThese new codes are made from scratch though? Also, have you guys heard of any applications at all that
prohibit you, as in "terms and agreements prohibited," from using them on Wine? Thanks.
but windows), but software EULAs are unlikely to hold up in court; they are not usually seen as equal to
contracts.
EULAs have been found to be enforceable under U.S. law, but there yet has to be a 'test case' where this has been run through to SCOTUS. However, prior cases have been 'settled out of court'. This means that the people in the case decided not to pursue the issue.
This is different in the E.U. where the Court has found the EULA too restrictive and struck down the requirement to run software on Windows (or any other OS for that matter) being unenforceable.
Other areas of the world have different opinions. However, before installing software onto your computer, read the EULA and be prepared for the worst.
As an instance of this, in order to use Microsoft's fonts, you have to be in possession of a Microsoft License. I have one, with the software package and under the MSDN, so I'm ok. However, if you wipe your hard drive, which had the restoration on it, and are not in physical possession of a copy of Windows (you could even have a uninstallable copy of Windows98SE) then you are technically in violation of the EULA. Will Microsoft come after you? Probably not, but then again, they have been known to do strange things.
The bottom line is that you can do whatever you want, but you have to be ready to face the consequences. Consulting legal people before you do something, like install Office 2007 for your entire company, is always a good thing considering the financial problems you can encounter.
And as always, you mileage may vary based upon the terrian you live in (in other words, all of the above may not apply depending on where you live and your computer's ability to run the software in the first place.)
Very respectfully,
James McKenzie
]
Wow!
Very detailed! Thanks! I really just want to follow the EULA because it's an agreement that I make when I use the software, no matter where I am. (Here in the Philippines those hold up in the law, I think.) I'm wondering if the Internet Explorer of Wine is also clean-room. Is it?
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Oli Warner
Legal Issues
Where did you hear this? That is a sincere question as somebody needsI heard that Wine uses Windows apps like [...]
correcting.
Rather than people individually answering how each element of Wine is coded,
how about this: the core wine system, including its regedit, notepad, etc
applications are all written *for* wine by people with no access to
comparative Microsoft code. I believe that last bit is Wine contribution
policy: If you've seen copyright MS code, you're not allowed in to avoid
copyright issues. I could be wrong - check the docs if you care.
Apps you install on Wine (including IE) keeps its original copyrights and
licenses. When you install IE, you're installing a Microsoft product it as
you would on a Windows machine. License-wise, nothing changes so if the EULA
says you can only run it on a genuine copy of Windows, you cannot install it
under Wine and remain under the EULA.
There *are* MS products with this clause in their EULA but it's your choice
if you want to follow them... Or if they're even enforceable or not...
Well... let's not get into that.
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Re: Wow!
Wine doesn't really have a full featured IE. It's just an empty shell around system libraries that really are the IE. Wine implements them on top of Gecko engine which is the core of the Firefox.army_ant7 wrote:I'm wondering if the Internet Explorer of Wine is also clean-room. Is it?
And you've already been told how Wine implements things and where that information is coming from. You don't have to ask the same exact question for every app Wine has. Scroll back and read what people already said.
army_ant7 As you can see from what vitamin said there is more way to skin a cat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_ActiveX_Control is what wine internet explorer these days started from. So its sourced and expanded on top off as applications failed to work with it. Black box style development.
Wine most common system is called black boxing. This is not clean rooming.
Clean room is suggesting the code has been disassembled and documented.
Black boxing is where you do test cases on the unknown closed source section. Never disassembling the unknown closed source section. You don't need to know what is inside the black box as long as your replacement to it matches it in function and responses. If you read MS EULA Black Boxing is not forbin its legal even by the EULA.
You should hear the Reactos people scream about how wine internals don't match up in any way shape or form to a windows NT system. So yes the evidence exists that wine has been build black box style.
Other sources has been documentation on windows api that may or may not have come from reversing we don't need know and don't need to care. It legal to use the documentation so it used.
Ie if sections turned out to be build from documentation from disassemble work they would be clean room but its not important for the project to know.
No direct disassemble work is done by the wine project.
http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi Basically learn some the terms of reversing and stop being insulting.
You came in here with the complete idea that wine has to be doing something illegal army_ant7. You are free to look all you want there is nothing illegal here.
Even using winetricks script it warns you about items needing MS licensing that has to be checked on a country by country base.
If anything around wine need there asses kicked its some of the front ends of wine that install parts from MS under EULA's that are illegal to do in some countries and not informing users that it doing this. That is not a wine problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_ActiveX_Control is what wine internet explorer these days started from. So its sourced and expanded on top off as applications failed to work with it. Black box style development.
Wine most common system is called black boxing. This is not clean rooming.
Clean room is suggesting the code has been disassembled and documented.
Black boxing is where you do test cases on the unknown closed source section. Never disassembling the unknown closed source section. You don't need to know what is inside the black box as long as your replacement to it matches it in function and responses. If you read MS EULA Black Boxing is not forbin its legal even by the EULA.
You should hear the Reactos people scream about how wine internals don't match up in any way shape or form to a windows NT system. So yes the evidence exists that wine has been build black box style.
Other sources has been documentation on windows api that may or may not have come from reversing we don't need know and don't need to care. It legal to use the documentation so it used.
Ie if sections turned out to be build from documentation from disassemble work they would be clean room but its not important for the project to know.
No direct disassemble work is done by the wine project.
http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/faq.cgi Basically learn some the terms of reversing and stop being insulting.
You came in here with the complete idea that wine has to be doing something illegal army_ant7. You are free to look all you want there is nothing illegal here.
Even using winetricks script it warns you about items needing MS licensing that has to be checked on a country by country base.
If anything around wine need there asses kicked its some of the front ends of wine that install parts from MS under EULA's that are illegal to do in some countries and not informing users that it doing this. That is not a wine problem.
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Danila Sentiabov
Legal Issues
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 06:09, army_ant7 <[email protected]> wrote:
Wine could be used to run genuine Microsoft Internet Explorer, but it
doesn't contain it or ship it in any way. The only browser included in Wine
has nothing to do with Microsoft - it is based on Gecko engine.
--
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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You've understood it wrong.I just read this on Wikipedia.com. I heard that it provides those including
IE...
Wine could be used to run genuine Microsoft Internet Explorer, but it
doesn't contain it or ship it in any way. The only browser included in Wine
has nothing to do with Microsoft - it is based on Gecko engine.
--
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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Danila Sentiabov
Legal Issues
Wikipedia article was indeed misleading:
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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I've edited the article to clarify things:*winecfg* is a GUI configuration utility included with Wine. Winecfg makes
configuring Wine easier by making it unnecessary to edit the registry
directly, although, if needed, this can be done with *regedit<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regedit>
*. Wine also includes versions of several other Windows programs, such as
*notepad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notepad_%28Windows%29>*, *wordpad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wordpad>
*, *control <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Pa ... Windows%29>*, *
iexplore <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer>* and *explorer<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Explorer>
*.
--*winecfg* is a GUI configuration utility included with Wine. Winecfg makes
configuring Wine easier by making it unnecessary to edit the registry
directly, although, if needed, this can be done with included registry
editor (similar to Windows *regedit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regedit>
*). Wine also includes its own open-source implementations of several
other Windows programs, such as *notepad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notepad_%28Windows%29>
*, *wordpad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wordpad>*, *control<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Pa ... Windows%29>
*, *iexplore <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer>* and *
explorer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Explorer>*.
Best regards,
Danila Sentiabov aka dsent
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Hm...
Oh! Sorry for the misunderstanding. It's just that the first part of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_%28software%29 says, that part of Wine was done by clean rooming and most, I think, by black boxing.
I'm not sure about the definitions of both designs, but here goes. Clean rooming is a type of reverse engineering without knowledge of how a proprietary program was made to work, according to Wikipedia. But when I looked at the definition of reverse engineering, which I know some EULA's prohibit, it said something about checking the source code of a program to see how it was made.
Black boxing is just making a program from scratch, but copying the functions of a program without checking its source code.
Please clarify clean rooming. If my definitions are wrong or lacking, I would greatly appreciate corrections. I'm a little confused though. How do you prove that you haven't ever looked at the source code of the program you're black boxing?
BTW, isn't Direct3D proprietary? I'm just wondering why it's incorporated into Wine.
I'm a real newb, but I'm striving to learn more. Thanks for everything so far to everyone who's helped. I also hope that other people are benefiting from this. Merry Christmas!
P.S. Thanks to Danila Sentiabov for clearing up the misconception in Wikipedia!
I'm not sure about the definitions of both designs, but here goes. Clean rooming is a type of reverse engineering without knowledge of how a proprietary program was made to work, according to Wikipedia. But when I looked at the definition of reverse engineering, which I know some EULA's prohibit, it said something about checking the source code of a program to see how it was made.
Black boxing is just making a program from scratch, but copying the functions of a program without checking its source code.
Please clarify clean rooming. If my definitions are wrong or lacking, I would greatly appreciate corrections. I'm a little confused though. How do you prove that you haven't ever looked at the source code of the program you're black boxing?
BTW, isn't Direct3D proprietary? I'm just wondering why it's incorporated into Wine.
I'm a real newb, but I'm striving to learn more. Thanks for everything so far to everyone who's helped. I also hope that other people are benefiting from this. Merry Christmas!
P.S. Thanks to Danila Sentiabov for clearing up the misconception in Wikipedia!
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ryan woodsmall
Legal Issues
Information on clean room/black box development is available online. Maybe try Wikipedia:Please clarify clean rooming. If my definitions are wrong or lacking, I would greatly appreciate corrections. I'm a little confused though. How do you prove that you haven't ever looked at the source code of the program you're black boxing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom_ ... ngineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box
All of the Windows API is proprietary to Microsoft. Wine is a free software (as in capital 'F' Free)/open source reimplementation of the API.BTW, isn't Direct3D proprietary? I'm just wondering why it's incorporated into Wine.
You're just trolling at this point. You should ask the ReactOS folks about looking at source code and debugged/disassembled programs. The Wine project simply doesn't allow that kind of behavior, which is why component tests and conformance across platforms are so critical:
http://wiki.winehq.org/Developers-Hints ... 4d8d378308
army_ant7 technically Wine does not ship with Direct X. Wine contains wined3d and other wine parts that does basically the same thing as Direct X built by blackboxing.
Wined3d reports that it Direct3d to applications even that it mapping even operation that has been blackboxed out of Direct X to opengl. Same with wine equal to direct x audio parts mapping to other sound systems.
Wined3d runs on windows as well as every platform. Wined3d is used by companies like vmware for making Direct X applications inside there virtual machine work.
Basically you just claimed wine contains something it does not army_ant7 internals of wined3d no where close to those of Direct3D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box_testing Black box testing is technically not reversing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design This is reversing clean room.
Wikipedia is a pain in ass to find stuff on reversing.
Notice a critical difference Clean Room does not provide patent protection.
Black box testing on the other hand. If internal implementations happen to match its independent development. Allowed for under patent law. Basically once you look inside the black box you are no longer fully independent.
Clean Room can also be highly costly using lawyers and the like. It is simpler to Black Box than clean room.
When it comes to reverse engineering Wikipedia is weak it can lead you to a lot of wrong places.
Basically there are no known legal issues in wine army_ant7.
Yes most of wine has been built from scratch with test cases guiding the way.
Black boxing is simple to prove. Bugs unique to wine have proven it many times over. Followed by testcases to testing function. Followed by that the internal code is not even close to MS design. MS direct X never redirects to opengl it goes down threw a completely different hardware path.
Then there is what called magic code that has a bad habit appearing in clean room and black box works. The magic code style is unique to each type. Not documented with why it is really doing something is magic code.
Wine does have some magic code but is normal magic code for blackboxing. Ie stubs that return a value got from black boxing with no clue why the function is returning that value inputs to function just junked. Note the black box stubs have a logical reason a test case acquired the result to return. But why the returned value no one is sure.
Clean room/disassemble magic code is different. Inside functions there is magic code performing operations with no logical reason or data supporting it. This code would normally appear and function correctly without any development process. Ie not natural. Code normally never just works perfectly normally need to be edited and corrected. It has finger prints. Lack of mistakes requiring reversions and corrections is a clear warning sign to Clean room or disassemble being used.
Yes history of wine a few developers have been caught being stupid enough to try to sneak disassemble or clean room stuff in. The lead maintainer does look for the signs. If a developer does get caught there code will be removed from wine. Most cases they get caught before they have had any of there code merged into the project. Lack of errors is a major giveaway. Its not human to get it perfectly right first time a lot.
army_ant7 basically if you had a greater understanding of detection of reversing you would have known it has a signature.
Wined3d reports that it Direct3d to applications even that it mapping even operation that has been blackboxed out of Direct X to opengl. Same with wine equal to direct x audio parts mapping to other sound systems.
Wined3d runs on windows as well as every platform. Wined3d is used by companies like vmware for making Direct X applications inside there virtual machine work.
Basically you just claimed wine contains something it does not army_ant7 internals of wined3d no where close to those of Direct3D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box_testing Black box testing is technically not reversing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design This is reversing clean room.
Wikipedia is a pain in ass to find stuff on reversing.
Notice a critical difference Clean Room does not provide patent protection.
Black box testing on the other hand. If internal implementations happen to match its independent development. Allowed for under patent law. Basically once you look inside the black box you are no longer fully independent.
Clean Room can also be highly costly using lawyers and the like. It is simpler to Black Box than clean room.
When it comes to reverse engineering Wikipedia is weak it can lead you to a lot of wrong places.
Basically there are no known legal issues in wine army_ant7.
Yes most of wine has been built from scratch with test cases guiding the way.
Black boxing is simple to prove. Bugs unique to wine have proven it many times over. Followed by testcases to testing function. Followed by that the internal code is not even close to MS design. MS direct X never redirects to opengl it goes down threw a completely different hardware path.
Then there is what called magic code that has a bad habit appearing in clean room and black box works. The magic code style is unique to each type. Not documented with why it is really doing something is magic code.
Wine does have some magic code but is normal magic code for blackboxing. Ie stubs that return a value got from black boxing with no clue why the function is returning that value inputs to function just junked. Note the black box stubs have a logical reason a test case acquired the result to return. But why the returned value no one is sure.
Clean room/disassemble magic code is different. Inside functions there is magic code performing operations with no logical reason or data supporting it. This code would normally appear and function correctly without any development process. Ie not natural. Code normally never just works perfectly normally need to be edited and corrected. It has finger prints. Lack of mistakes requiring reversions and corrections is a clear warning sign to Clean room or disassemble being used.
Yes history of wine a few developers have been caught being stupid enough to try to sneak disassemble or clean room stuff in. The lead maintainer does look for the signs. If a developer does get caught there code will be removed from wine. Most cases they get caught before they have had any of there code merged into the project. Lack of errors is a major giveaway. Its not human to get it perfectly right first time a lot.
army_ant7 basically if you had a greater understanding of detection of reversing you would have known it has a signature.
