AutoCAD and Wine

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ruelle
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Posts: 47
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 8:59 am

AutoCAD and Wine

Post by ruelle »

autocad 2008 and wine rc 4
installation starts but after autocad 2008 doesn't install..

:( :( :(

autocad 2008 and wine rc 3:

installation finish but the program doens't start!!
this i s what appear when I try to start acad .exe;

Code: Select all

barca@barca:~$ wine '/home/barca/.wine/drive_c/Programmi/AutoCAD 2008/acad.exe' 
fixme:heap:HeapSetInformation 0xff0000 0 0x33f9dc 4
fixme:virtual:NtAllocateVirtualMemory MEM_WRITE_WATCH type not supported
fixme:advapi:CheckTokenMembership (0x168 0x1994f8 0x33d47c) stub!

Eccezione non gestita: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.GetSatelliteAssembliesFromConfig()
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.TryLookingForSatellite(CultureInfo lookForCulture)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.InternalGetResourceSet(CultureInfo culture, Boolean createIfNotExists, Boolean tryParents)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.GetString(String name, CultureInfo culture)
   at System.Environment.ResourceHelper.GetResourceStringCode(Object userDataIn)
   at System.Environment.GetResourceFromDefault(String key)
   at System.TypeInitializationException..ctor(String fullTypeName, Exception innerException)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.GetNativeTextInfo(Int32 cultureID)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.get_InvariantNativeTextInfo()
   at System.String.Compare(String strA, Int32 indexA, String strB, Int32 indexB, Int32 length, StringComparison comparisonType)
   at System.Security.Util.URLString.PreProcessForExtendedPathRemoval(String url, Boolean isFileUrl)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.NormalizePath(String path, Boolean useAppBase)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.SetupDefaultApplicationBase(String imageLocation)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupFusionStore(AppDomainSetup info)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupDomain(Boolean allowRedirects, String path, String configFile)
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x2f32c57 (thread 0082), starting debugger...
Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00000000 in 32-bit code (0x02f32c57).
Register dump:
 CS:0073 SS:007b DS:007b ES:007b FS:0033 GS:003b
 EIP:02f32c57 ESP:0033e6c0 EBP:0033e70c EFLAGS:00010293(   - 00      RISA1C)
 EAX:00000000 EBX:00892244 ECX:008911b4 EDX:0000040c
 ESI:00000000 EDI:0033e6ec
Stack dump:
0x0033e6c0:  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
0x0033e6d0:  00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
0x0033e6e0:  00000000 00000000 00000000 0033e744
0x0033e6f0:  02f32b5d 00000000 0189101c 00892244
0x0033e700:  00892244 0189101c 00000000 0033e744
0x0033e710:  02f32b5d 00000000 00893924 00892244
Backtrace:
=>1 0x02f32c57 (0x0033e70c)
  2 0x02f32b5d (0x0033e744)
  3 0x02e98f27 (0x0033e798)
  4 0x02e98aaf (0x00891de4)
  5 0x00000018 (0x003a9310)
  6 0x00000010 (0x02440002)
0x02f32c57: cmpl	%eax,0x0(%esi)
Modules:
Module	Address			Debug info	Name (83 modules)
PE	  400000-  442000	Deferred        admigrator
PE	5e380000-5e409000	Deferred        diasymreader
PE	64020000-64033000	Deferred        mscorsec
PE	78130000-781cb000	Deferred        msvcr80
PE	79000000-79045000	Deferred        mscoree
PE	79060000-790b3000	Deferred        mscorjit
PE	790c0000-794de000	Deferred        mscorlib
PE	79e70000-7a3d1000	Deferred        mscorwks
ELF	7b800000-7b92d000	Deferred        kernel32<elf>
  \-PE	7b820000-7b92d000	\               kernel32
ELF	7bc00000-7bca4000	Deferred        ntdll<elf>
  \-PE	7bc10000-7bca4000	\               ntdll
ELF	7bf00000-7bf03000	Deferred        <wine-loader>
ELF	7e1ee000-7e202000	Deferred        lz32<elf>
  \-PE	7e1f0000-7e202000	\               lz32
ELF	7e202000-7e21b000	Deferred        version<elf>
  \-PE	7e210000-7e21b000	\               version
ELF	7e21b000-7e2bd000	Deferred        oleaut32<elf>
  \-PE	7e230000-7e2bd000	\               oleaut32
ELF	7e2e5000-7e2f8000	Deferred        libresolv.so.2
ELF	7e303000-7e321000	Deferred        iphlpapi<elf>
  \-PE	7e310000-7e321000	\               iphlpapi
ELF	7e321000-7e382000	Deferred        rpcrt4<elf>
  \-PE	7e330000-7e382000	\               rpcrt4
ELF	7e382000-7e426000	Deferred        ole32<elf>
  \-PE	7e390000-7e426000	\               ole32
ELF	7e426000-7e460000	Deferred        rsaenh<elf>
  \-PE	7e430000-7e460000	\               rsaenh
ELF	7e460000-7e477000	Deferred        imagehlp<elf>
  \-PE	7e470000-7e477000	\               imagehlp
ELF	7e477000-7e48a000	Deferred        softpub<elf>
  \-PE	7e480000-7e48a000	\               softpub
ELF	7e48a000-7e4bd000	Deferred        uxtheme<elf>
  \-PE	7e490000-7e4bd000	\               uxtheme
ELF	7e4bd000-7e57c000	Deferred        comctl32<elf>
  \-PE	7e4d0000-7e57c000	\               comctl32
ELF	7e57c000-7e5e4000	Deferred        crypt32<elf>
  \-PE	7e590000-7e5e4000	\               crypt32
ELF	7e5e4000-7e60d000	Deferred        wintrust<elf>
  \-PE	7e5f0000-7e60d000	\               wintrust
ELF	7e82f000-7e899000	Deferred        msvcrt<elf>
  \-PE	7e840000-7e899000	\               msvcrt
ELF	7e899000-7e8a2000	Deferred        libxcursor.so.1
ELF	7e8a2000-7e8a7000	Deferred        libxfixes.so.3
ELF	7e8a7000-7e8aa000	Deferred        libxcomposite.so.1
ELF	7e8aa000-7e8b0000	Deferred        libxrandr.so.2
ELF	7e8b0000-7e8b8000	Deferred        libxrender.so.1
ELF	7e8b8000-7e8bb000	Deferred        libxinerama.so.1
ELF	7e8bb000-7e8db000	Deferred        imm32<elf>
  \-PE	7e8c0000-7e8db000	\               imm32
ELF	7e8db000-7e8e0000	Deferred        libxdmcp.so.6
ELF	7e8e0000-7e8f8000	Deferred        libxcb.so.1
ELF	7e8f8000-7e8fb000	Deferred        libxau.so.6
ELF	7e8fb000-7e9e2000	Deferred        libx11.so.6
ELF	7e9e2000-7e9f0000	Deferred        libxext.so.6
ELF	7e9f0000-7e9f5000	Deferred        libxxf86vm.so.1
ELF	7e9f5000-7ea0d000	Deferred        libice.so.6
ELF	7ea0d000-7ea15000	Deferred        libsm.so.6
ELF	7ea20000-7eab7000	Deferred        winex11<elf>
  \-PE	7ea30000-7eab7000	\               winex11
ELF	7eaf8000-7eb19000	Deferred        libexpat.so.1
ELF	7eb19000-7eb43000	Deferred        libfontconfig.so.1
ELF	7eb4e000-7eb63000	Deferred        libz.so.1
ELF	7eb63000-7ebd3000	Deferred        libfreetype.so.6
ELF	7ebd3000-7ec6e000	Deferred        gdi32<elf>
  \-PE	7ebe0000-7ec6e000	\               gdi32
ELF	7ec6e000-7edb5000	Deferred        user32<elf>
  \-PE	7ec90000-7edb5000	\               user32
ELF	7edb5000-7ee0e000	Deferred        shlwapi<elf>
  \-PE	7edc0000-7ee0e000	\               shlwapi
ELF	7ee0e000-7ee60000	Deferred        advapi32<elf>
  \-PE	7ee20000-7ee60000	\               advapi32
ELF	7ee79000-7ee84000	Deferred        libnss_files.so.2
ELF	7ee84000-7ee9c000	Deferred        libnsl.so.1
ELF	7ee9c000-7eea5000	Deferred        libnss_compat.so.2
ELF	7eea5000-7eea7000	Deferred        libxcb-xlib.so.0
ELF	7efd0000-7eff5000	Deferred        libm.so.6
ELF	7eff6000-7f000000	Deferred        libnss_nis.so.2
ELF	b7c5a000-b7c5e000	Deferred        libdl.so.2
ELF	b7c5e000-b7dad000	Deferred        libc.so.6
ELF	b7dae000-b7dc6000	Deferred        libpthread.so.0
ELF	b7dd1000-b7f07000	Deferred        libwine.so.1
ELF	b7f09000-b7f25000	Deferred        ld-linux.so.2
Threads:
process  tid      prio (all id:s are in hex)
0000000c 
	00000045    0
	0000008c    0
	00000090    0
	0000006d    0
	00000078    0
	0000001d    0
	0000000e    0
	0000000d    0
0000000f 
	00000010    0
0000001a 
	00000020    0
	0000001f    0
	0000001c    0
	0000001b    0
00000030 
	00000013    0
	00000033    0
	00000032    0
	00000048    0
00000034 
	00000047    0
	0000003a    0
	00000039    0
	00000038    0
	00000037    0
0000006f 
	00000086    0
00000085 
	00000092    0
	00000072    0
00000077 
	00000015    0
	00000041    0
	0000008d    0
	0000008b    0
	00000091    0
	0000006e    0
00000043 (D) C:\Programmi\AutoCAD 2008\AdMigrator.exe
	0000008a    2
	00000081    0
	00000082    0 <==
Backtrace:
=>1 0x02f32c57 (0x0033e70c)
  2 0x02f32b5d (0x0033e744)
  3 0x02e98f27 (0x0033e798)
  4 0x02e98aaf (0x00891de4)
  5 0x00000018 (0x003a9310)
  6 0x00000010 (0x02440002)

Eccezione non gestita: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.GetSatelliteAssembliesFromConfig()
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.TryLookingForSatellite(CultureInfo lookForCulture)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.InternalGetResourceSet(CultureInfo culture, Boolean createIfNotExists, Boolean tryParents)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.GetString(String name, CultureInfo culture)
   at System.Environment.ResourceHelper.GetResourceStringCode(Object userDataIn)
   at System.Environment.GetResourceFromDefault(String key)
   at System.TypeInitializationException..ctor(String fullTypeName, Exception innerException)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.GetNativeTextInfo(Int32 cultureID)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.get_InvariantNativeTextInfo()
   at System.String.Compare(String strA, Int32 indexA, String strB, Int32 indexB, Int32 length, StringComparison comparisonType)
   at System.Security.Util.URLString.PreProcessForExtendedPathRemoval(String url, Boolean isFileUrl)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.NormalizePath(String path, Boolean useAppBase)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.SetupDefaultApplicationBase(String imageLocation)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupFusionStore(AppDomainSetup info)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupDomain(Boolean allowRedirects, String path, String configFile)

Eccezione non gestita: System.Threading.SynchronizationLockException: Object synchronization method was called from an unsynchronized block of code.
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.TryLookingForSatellite(CultureInfo lookForCulture)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.InternalGetResourceSet(CultureInfo culture, Boolean createIfNotExists, Boolean tryParents)
   at System.Resources.ResourceManager.GetString(String name, CultureInfo culture)
   at System.Environment.ResourceHelper.GetResourceStringCode(Object userDataIn)
   at System.Environment.GetResourceFromDefault(String key)
   at System.TypeInitializationException..ctor(String fullTypeName, Exception innerException)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.GetNativeTextInfo(Int32 cultureID)
   at System.Globalization.TextInfo.get_InvariantNativeTextInfo()
   at System.String.Compare(String strA, Int32 indexA, String strB, Int32 indexB, Int32 length, StringComparison comparisonType)
   at System.Security.Util.URLString.PreProcessForExtendedPathRemoval(String url, Boolean isFileUrl)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.NormalizePath(String path, Boolean useAppBase)
   at System.AppDomainSetup.SetupDefaultApplicationBase(String imageLocation)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupFusionStore(AppDomainSetup info)
   at System.AppDomain.SetupDomain(Boolean allowRedirects, String path, String configFile)
barca@barca:~$ 
Last edited by ruelle on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:59 am, edited 6 times in total.
ruelle
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Post by ruelle »

other info with a lot of comments here:

http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.p ... n&iId=9306
Grof
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Post by Grof »

OK, here I am :)

So, conclusion for now is that DLL file named adlmdll.dll make some troubles with starting AutoCAD application.

This DLL seems to be some part of Autodesk License Manager system...

If solve problems with Autodesk License managing system perhaps we then can be able to start application...
miciomax
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:56 am

Post by miciomax »

Well, we should separate installation problems from run problems.

About the installation, I couldn't manage, up to now, to install retail version, nor in rc-2, rc-2 and rc-4, and also with some patches from wine-bugs.
Well, the install finish, but if you look in log there are errors.
The app don't run, of course.

What I managed to show something is the portable autoca 2008. I don't know it it's an official release from autodesk or not, but it starts, show some error on graphics drivers and then crash.

IMHO we should stay on official release, portable one installs itself on launch and can bring future problems.

Besides 2008, I tried also with 2005, 2007 and 2009 with no chances, installer breaks somewhere.
So, I think we should focus on first step, so, have it installed correctly, which is an already difficult stuff.
So, if somebody managed to install 2008 version, I'd like to see complete wine log for it :

wine setup >& /tmp/acadsetup.log

posted somewhere (I guess here is not a good place as logs can become long).
If install is ok, we can then put an howto somewhere and start looking at application.

Max
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

Null reference exception...

Welcome in club :wink:

Seriously I have exactly the same error as you, there is little you can do but the more people have this error, the more chances it will be solved.

System.Resources.ResourceManager.TryLookingForSatellite

This is for instance a class from mscorlib.dll.
The new developments leads to mscorlib installing (I assume you have the .NET installed), but somehow it's not pointing to the right place (yet) because the place it should synchronize had either not been developped yet or there is a bug.
qwertymn
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Post by qwertymn »

I spent some time yesterday on various Autocad trials, and so far i have managed to get Autocad 2004, 2006, and 2007 trial running. Someone else reported he had 2005 and 2008 running. I haven't had any lick with the 2008 LT trial yet though. For the installer to succeed you'd have to patch wine, so compile wine from source. I didn't do any deeply testing, so it might be that the various version still have various issues/bugs they run into.

More info in :
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13599 and
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iAppId=86
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

Could you give more information on patching Wine to get this running without the above error?

If you are who had just sent a patch for mscoree and assuming that mscoree the only buitin dll on one of my backtraces of the above error, do you think that your recent patch would solve this problem?
qwertymn
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Post by qwertymn »

Well, that mscoree patch is not the patch that i meant; it's only to be able to test autocad without using native dotnet20. The patch i was talking about is http://bugs.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=13812 (Sorry there's even lots if unneeded commented crap in it)

If it would solve your bug i really wouldn't know; the only thing i know is that AutoCad needs a real installation in wine; it depends on a zillion registry keys that it creates during install.

So to summarize: rm -rf ~/.wine and then try again installing (with the hack above) and try running
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

I think this is not an issue with the software itself but some components of the installer.

I came to this view because of the comment from Grof

"This DLL seems to be some part of Autodesk License Manager system"

And I have the feeling that the dll that is causing the problem on my software has something to do with the license manager too, because it's the only thing not working on Trados at the moment (apart from incomplete toolbar and Word issues)

Edit: Trados itself hat zillions of registry entries too.
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

There is however a crucial difference between your using of the .NET and qwertymn's
You are using winetricks to install dotnet 2.0.
I am directly installing it in a fresh prefix (it is part of the installer), so you are using Win2000 and I WinXp as version.

Ruelle: In which Wine Version (XP or Win2000) are you installing the .NET? Are you installing it directly or through the winetricks?
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

qwertymn wrote:Well, that mscoree patch is not the patch that i meant; it's only to be able to test autocad without using native dotnet20. The patch i was talking about is http://bugs.winehq.org/attachment.cgi?id=13812 (Sorry there's even lots if unneeded commented crap in it)
With the mscoree patch from yesterday there seems to be some progress. It's not that the error message is disappearing but it's going a bit further past this error but afterwards it's hanging.

At least there is hope for this bug too.

Edit: other patch is not changing anything
miciomax
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Post by miciomax »

Please look at AppDB, there are good news for autocad users :D

Ciao

Max
Grof
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Post by Grof »

miciomax wrote:Please look at AppDB, there are good news for autocad users :D

Ciao

Max
:D Eppur si muove!

But I am still thinking is very important to make able run Autodesk License manager and handle licenses under wine.
I do not know what security mechanisms has SafeCast as a part of Autodesk License protections, and can wine emulate PC machine enough to properly run SafeCast??!
To AutoCAD 2004 used C-Dilla protection system
From AutoCAD 2004 and up ued SafeCast protection system!
Grof
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Post by Grof »

Here is some detailed infos about SafeCast protection

This protection system write datas to Boot sector of main Hard disk. I do not know how wine can handle this. :?: I am a little skeptic..
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

Grof wrote:
miciomax wrote:Please look at AppDB, there are good news for autocad users :D

Ciao

Max
:D Eppur si muove!

But I am still thinking is very important to make able run Autodesk License manager and handle licenses under wine.
I do not know what security mechanisms has SafeCast as a part of Autodesk License protections, and can wine emulate PC machine enough to properly run SafeCast??!
To AutoCAD 2004 used C-Dilla protection system
From AutoCAD 2004 and up ued SafeCast protection system!
Trados has the Flexnet system which is from the same house as Safecast, if not the same product if you are thinking of a license manager.

At least the floating license with a license file is partially working (it is tied to the ethernet card which Wine can access). It is recognizing the demo but running 30 days in trial mode because of a problem with the license server, which Wine can handle.

For the versions locked to the hardware, I think there may be some difficulties
miciomax
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Post by miciomax »

Grof wrote:Here is some detailed infos about SafeCast protection

This protection system write datas to Boot sector of main Hard disk. I do not know how wine can handle this. :?: I am a little skeptic..
Well, I dunno if that's true, but I'm convinced that if an application fiddles with my boot sector it deserves to be pirated. Users have enough problems with viruses and so (in particular window$ ones....) without need of dumb protection schemes that does virus-like stuffs.
AFAIK many protection schemes do READ from hdd serials, network cards MAC and so... but never known about writing to boot sectors (at least, not on modern os, on good ol DOS it was common...)

Max
jfurner

autocad 2008 and wine rc 4

Post by jfurner »

I'm new to UbunTu, but I go way back to DOS 1.1. So I don't think command line stuff will be any big deal.

However, I'm thinking about using Cross Over Pro, instead of Wine.

Does anyone have any feedback on Cross Over or comparisons with Wine? Is it better, less buggy?

Regards,

John

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "miciomax" <[email protected]>
Grof wrote:
infos about SafeCast protection
This protection system write datas to Boot sector of main Hard disk. I do not
know how wine can handle this. [Question] I am a little skeptic..


Well, I dunno if that's true, but I'm convinced that if an application fiddles
with my boot sector it deserves to be pirated. Users have enough problems with
viruses and so (in particular window$ ones....) without need of dumb protection
schemes that does virus-like stuffs.
AFAIK many protection schemes do READ from hdd serials, network cards MAC and
so... but never known about writing to boot sectors (at least, not on modern os,
on good ol DOS it was common...)

Max



Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

Crossover may be less buggy for applications that are under support, which means that if your application is under support you can expect from one version to the other that you will be able to use it at least as good as if not better. However, crossover's improvements do get back if Wine if they are not too much a hack.

However for an application to be supported, it must have enough requests for it (votes) or work well to start with.

If your application is not supported and is not working well, you are better off hoping with wine that, due to the more frequent releases your problem will be fixed earlier.

This means in the end: if your application does not have enough votes for it, you will have to do some debugging yourself under Wine if you want your application to have a chance to go into crossover's support where it will be looked after that's it does not get broken again.

imho comparing Wine and Crossover is comparing apples and pears, they are both fruits but have differents targets.
epsilon_da
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Post by epsilon_da »

I just signed in to append my self to the list of people wanting AutoCAD to be usable on wine.

Cheers.
miciomax
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Post by miciomax »

AutoCAD, now, at least the 2005 version, IS usable, with some hacks and in demo mode.
The big remaining problem is the activation page that shows blank.... But the trial version has no limits, besides the 30 days.
So, if you have a license, what you can do by now is re-install the demo after the 30 days... I don't think there are legal issues as long as you own a license.

Max
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

miciomax wrote: So, if you have a license, what you can do by now is re-install the demo after the 30 days... I don't think there are legal issues as long as you own a license.
I think this won't stay long. As soon as it gets working in Wine and you just have to reinstall every 30 days to have an unlimited demo, you won't ever have to pay a license and the new trial will be with another method - there is too much money to loose.

On a side note, I think this is assuming 2 things:
The demo is not unlocked online
There is no entry in a boot sector.

As far as my version of Flexnet is concerned I noticed a couple of things:

Without a license, it is working in demo (limited) mode. This is however not usable for a professional use.
If you have a floating license, it accepts the license and turns in unlimited 30 days trial FOR EACH NEW PREFIX.
The hassle is a new installation every 30 days. I think here the fact that the flexnet is trying to create a dll is a time stamp.
For a flexible License, Wine can recognize the ethernet serial ID but not the one of the mainboard so you should not use a license with reference to the mainboard ID.
Licensing with a number is only valid for 1-2 installations. You get quickly stuck if you are using a serial number. because if Wine crashes and you don't give the license back, it's blocked.
Grof
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Post by Grof »

One question:

Is that patch what must applied to wine for AutoCAD and recompile all thing, will be included into new release candidate of wine? (RC5)??
Timeout
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Post by Timeout »

It looks more a hack than a patch and thus not very likely.

That patch would mean AUTOCAD seems to check if it is not running in a virtual environment.
miciomax
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Post by miciomax »

The "patch" to get autocad installed IS an hack, just to make wine msi installer to skip an offending file.... btw, I still don't know the purpose of skipped file, all seems working.
The hack as is will never be included in wine, it's just specific to autocad setup... the real solution must still be found.
You must get wine with git (instructions on web page), apply the patch (put patch file in wine top folder, issue command "patch -p1 < patchfile" and then rebuild as usual.
One note... if you don't know how to build from source, look at instructions BEFORE doing it. If you have wine installed by debian package, you can either issue a "sudo make install" on wine tree, which "should" overwrite debian files, or uninstall debian package before; I'd suggest the last solution, as I don't know if wine's make install will put files on same places as debian package.
WARNING, be sure to not have 2 wine versions installed on different places, if you don't know how to deal with it.... you'll run into troubles otherwise.

Besides of registration login screen and, to some extents, slow text rendering the app runs perfectly. If you find problems with it, please comment it on appdb or, if you're sure that's a bug, file it on bugzilla.... that will help to solve it.

Slow text rendering can be bypassed choosing "3d wireframe" view mode, which makes texts NOT filled and linetypes rendered as continuous lines, but speeds up stuffs noticeably. Not a full solution, but makes app usable professionally.

Ciao

Max
Grof
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:54 am

Post by Grof »

Thanks a lot!

I must try that! :D
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